Thoughts on writing an emotional argument scene?

[P.M. Turner]

I know a lot of you already know plenty about my book, but it's been a while since I've talked about it, so here's a quick catch-up synopsis for anyone new who hasn't heard me talk about my book, or those of you who don't remember. If you do, feel free to skip the next paragraph.

Sixteen year old Joanna Blackwell moves to Timber Gulch, a small Michigan town, and moves in with her father, Finn. Finn and Joanna's mother Margaret have been divorced since Joanna was eight. The two form a very close bond, but they are haunted by the fact that their time together is running out because Finn is dying of a heart condition. Over the course of the novel, Joanna does a lot of maturing and growing up. She also falls in love with the boy who works at the diner, and oh! There's also a murder mystery subplot. It's basically literary fiction/mystery/coming-of-age/ reflection on the father-daughter relationship.

Okay, so here's my question. I'm gearing up to write Finn's death scene. Towards the end of the novel, I'm thinking he and Joanna have a major argument about something right before a big town meeting where Finn is going to give a speech. I'm planning on killing him off right after. I could use some advice on what the argument should be about, because I'm a little worried that the idea might be too cliché. Y'know, they argue, he's going to die, they forgive each other, blah blah blah. We've all seen the trope before, I'm sure.

I think I have enough good ideas to make that part itself not terribly cliché, but it's the argument itself I'm unsure about. I was thinking it could be related to health concerns. For example, one of them is tired of the whole ordeal. It could be Finn losing his will to fight it and keep living, or could be Joanna overwhelmed and falling apart under the strain of having to watch him die. I'm not sure which would be better, or if it should be something else entirely. Any thoughts? Thanks!

 

[robwitty]

In the argument scene, whose POV is it?

 

[carolinamtne]

How does he die? The result of his health issue, so "naturally"? Or in an accident of some kind?

 

[P.M. Turner]

In the argument scene, whose POV is it?

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It could easily be either. They are both my narrators throughout the story, and switch viewpoints each chapter. However, as a side note, I've been playing around with an experiment where, later on during the actual death scene, it cycles rapidly back and forth between their points of view during Finn's final moments. I don't know if that will work out, just something I wanted to try. But the argument could definitely go either way.

 

[P.M. Turner]

How does he die? The result of his health issue, so "naturally"? Or in an accident of some kind?

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I guess technically, "naturally," but I'm thinking it would be brought on by everything that happens before. I'm thinking about maybe including a part where, immediately following the argument, Finn goes to the town meeting intentionally leaving his pill bottle on the counter at home . . . sort of tempting fate/dramatic irony.

 

[carolinamtne]

Finn goes to the town meeting intentionally leaving his pill bottle on the counter at home . . . sort of tempting fate/dramatic irony.

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And adding to her guilt when she finds the bottle on the counter after his death. Is that in character for him?

 

[P.M. Turner]

And adding to her guilt when she finds the bottle on the counter after his death. Is that in character for him?

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Not really . . . he's a genuinely caring father and wouldn't do anything manipulative. The way I see it, it's not really to add to her guilt, it was more of a "I'm giving up" move, indicating that he's ready to just let whatever happens, happen.

 

[carolinamtne]

Has he said anything like that to her before the argument?

 

[P.M. Turner]

Has he said anything like that to her before the argument?

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I don't know . . . there were maybe some hints or indicators leading up to the argument, but most of it is simply that he's just reached his breaking point. As much as he wants to stay, he's tired of fighting his illness.

 

[Westee]

In my last book, the MC was battling cancer for a second time and debated stopping treatments. I could send you a few of those scenes in hopes that you might draw some inspiration from them. Send me a DM if you'd like to read them.

 

[MisterChris]

I know a lot of you already know plenty about my book, but it's been a while since I've talked about it, so here's a quick catch-up synopsis for anyone new who hasn't heard me talk about my book, or those of you who don't remember. If you do, feel free to skip the next paragraph.

Sixteen year old Joanna Blackwell moves to Timber Gulch, a small Michigan town, and moves in with her father, Finn. Finn and Joanna's mother Margaret have been divorced since Joanna was eight. The two form a very close bond, but they are haunted by the fact that their time together is running out because Finn is dying of a heart condition. Over the course of the novel, Joanna does a lot of maturing and growing up. She also falls in love with the boy who works at the diner, and oh! There's also a murder mystery subplot. It's basically literary fiction/mystery/coming-of-age/ reflection on the father-daughter relationship.

Okay, so here's my question. I'm gearing up to write Finn's death scene. Towards the end of the novel, I'm thinking he and Joanna have a major argument about something right before a big town meeting where Finn is going to give a speech. I'm planning on killing him off right after. I could use some advice on what the argument should be about, because I'm a little worried that the idea might be too cliché. Y'know, they argue, he's going to die, they forgive each other, blah blah blah. We've all seen the trope before, I'm sure.

I think I have enough good ideas to make that part itself not terribly cliché, but it's the argument itself I'm unsure about. I was thinking it could be related to health concerns. For example, one of them is tired of the whole ordeal. It could be Finn losing his will to fight it and keep living, or could be Joanna overwhelmed and falling apart under the strain of having to watch him die. I'm not sure which would be better, or if it should be something else entirely. Any thoughts? Thanks!

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I don't know how much you want us to encourage you off road here, but if he dies before they can make up, that is ALSO a common trope, but a very useful and emotive one. I would even take it further and have Finn, who knows he is dying, have something to the effect of a clear and blanket apology/request for forgiveness in a letter a lawyer reads at the reading of the Will, while she is still struggling with guilt over having an argument she can't forgive herself for, just before he dies. I don't know how MANY family members in my OWN family have struggled with that guilt, but it's common as dirt.

Both of those ideas on the argument are gold. and you can certainly use both. The old, I don't know if I can carry on much longer, replied with a, "Well, who cares anyway? Nobody in their right mind wants to see you keep struggling like this. I certainly can't. I'm leaving in the morning, I just can't take this anymore."

 

[P.M. Turner]

I don't know how much you want us to encourage you off road here, but if he dies before they can make up, that is ALSO a common trope, but a very useful and emotive one. I would even take it further and have Finn, who knows he is dying, have something to the effect of a clear and blanket apology/request for forgiveness in a letter a lawyer reads at the reading of the Will, while she is still struggling with guilt over having an argument she can't forgive herself for, just before he dies. I don't know how MANY family members in my OWN family have struggled with that guilt, but it's common as dirt.

Both of those ideas on the argument are gold. and you can certainly use both. The old, I don't know if I can carry on much longer, replied with a, "Well, who cares anyway? Nobody in their right mind wants to see you keep struggling like this. I certainly can't. I'm leaving in the morning, I just can't take this anymore."

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All good suggestions, for sure. As far as the top paragraph goes, I do think that's one thing I'm probably going to steer clear of, mostly because I already know I don't have it in my writer's heart to end their relationship on a depressing note like that. I'm a sucker for good father-daughter relationship stories, but one thing I've always hated (in at least two of my favorite movies) is when one dies and they don't have the final conversation/resolution. It just makes me hurt and wish I could have seen that. So being able to write their resolution before Finn dies is a big deal to me.

But I could definitely see things going the way you described in the second paragraph. I feel like that, in a sense, would create its own sense of guilt, in both of them.

 

[Lynae Fisher]

Just a random note that you may want to avoid as well, but here it is.

I once read a story about a guy who had some heart condition that the doc had given him pills to control. All was well until one day he was found dead in his garden. the pills were not on him, but the son found them under a brick near him. Then he realized what had happened. The pill company had just changed to using 'child proof' lids. The guy had never been able to learn to read, so he couldn't get the lid off. In desperation, he tried to crush the bottle with the brick, but ran out of time and died.

So maybe something could happen out of their control that causes his death? Then it's not about the conversation, just the course of events and they end on a better note. Just an idea, but you may not want that kind of thing either.

 

[P.M. Turner]

I once read a story about a guy who had some heart condition that the doc had given him pills to control. All was well until one day he was found dead in his garden. the pills were not on him, but the son found them under a brick near him. Then he realized what had happened. The pill company had just changed to using 'child proof' lids. The guy had never been able to learn to read, so he couldn't get the lid off. In desperation, he tried to crush the bottle with the brick, but ran out of time and died.

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Wow, that's . . . really depressing.

An interesting thought though . . .

 

[Kim K]

Whichever way you choose to go, I think it will be important to put yourself in the place of a man dying from a failing heart. He's going to be weak and exhausted. If he ever had a forcefulness to him, it is likely to be deeply eroded. Whatever he says should reflect that.

 

[P.M. Turner]

If he ever had a forcefulness to him, it is likely to be deeply eroded.

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Thank you for your comment! I'm especially intrigued by what you said in the portion above that I quoted. It feels like some food for thought. Any chance you could elaborate on this? Thanks!

 

[Kim K]

I was speaking in generalities, as I don't have any details about the father's illness. It's just that if people have been sick and slowly moving towards death, the things (thoughts, opinions, resentments) they've held on to before often fade out to some degree. Heart disease is famously linked with depression. Depressed people are generally not forceful. If a person is not well oxygenated, their voice will be weak, their skin will be pale. I guess my point was that if your character's behaviour runs against the physical norm of their health problem, it's one of those things that strikes the reader as off, and might keep them from getting "lost" in the scene. For example, if you were writing a historical novel where the heroine is dying of tuberculosis, you can't have them leaping up from their bed to greet their long-lost best friend. They won't have a loud voice. They won't have a ruddy complexion. etc.

 

[P.M. Turner]

I was speaking in generalities, as I don't have any details about the father's illness. It's just that if people have been sick and slowly moving towards death, the things (thoughts, opinions, resentments) they've held on to before often fade out to some degree. Heart disease is famously linked with depression. Depressed people are generally not forceful. If a person is not well oxygenated, their voice will be weak, their skin will be pale. I guess my point was that if your character's behaviour runs against the physical norm of their health problem, it's one of those things that strikes the reader as off, and might keep them from getting "lost" in the scene. For example, if you were writing a historical novel where the heroine is dying of tuberculosis, you can't have them leaping up from their bed to greet their long-lost best friend. They won't have a loud voice. They won't have a ruddy complexion. etc.

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This makes a lot of sense! Thank you!

 

[Kim K]

You are very welcome - hope it helps.

 

[FFBurwick]

I've seen argument done in all sorts of ways and see it can be expected that individuals might stoop to anything, such as ad hominem or gaslighting. Any faulty argument could be brought in. She might be blamed for doing something that caused the poor health and death now being faced, irrational though it might be. And she would be trying to deny the guilt but it works against rationality and would work its way in her.