General Discussion Forgiveness - What does it mean?

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Rebecca

Rebecca

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I don't usually post things that are personal, but there is an issue I am struggling with. I thought I'd bring this to my brothers and sisters in Christ and get your thoughts.

I know we're instructed to forgive others, and for most things, that's not even an issue. I understand people make mistakes and don't hold a grudge. After all, I make plenty of mistakes of my own and ask for the same grace and forgiveness in return.

My issue is when someone has committed a huge, life-altering sin against you and the people you love. The recent example of Charlie Kirk's widow forgiving his murder comes to mind. In my own personal life, it is someone secretly abusing a child in the worst possible ways for years, then using the name of Christ as justification to silence her and tell her she's not allowed to tell or be angry. No, that child was not me, but she is someone I love very dearly. The abuse caused a beautiful, faith-filled child who loved God to ultimately turn away from the faith and down a dark path. Her abuser is still allowed to serve in the church, even though the church leadership knows about his crimes.

In my heart, fury and protectiveness immediately rise to the top when I think about what happened. To me, forgiveness means saying we're okay, all is forgiven, and I no longer hold it against the offender. It's a clean slate, with maybe a small footnote to be cautious until they're fully earned back your trust.

But for something so huge... what does forgiveness look like? Abusing and tormenting a child will never be okay with me, and I don't want it to be.

I'm feeling called to understand this better and make sure I'm not also in sin.
 
suspensewriter said:
@Rebecca, have you turned this individual into the police?
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Yes! He turned himself in to the police and even (originally) confessed a small part of what he'd done. Due to complicated circumstances, he didn't serve any prison time but was let out on probation.

I should also say he was pressured to turn himself in. It was one of those "if you don't turn yourself in, I will turn you in," type situations. So it wasn't because he had an attack of conscience. As a matter of fact, we suspect he's gone back to his old ways (with different children) but the authorities haven't been able to prove it.
 
Oh, my goodness! This is sooo difficult. I'm so sorry about this. My heart aches for that child and for you. And you're right, abuse like this is extremely hard to forgive. I totally understand how you feel.

When the question of forgiveness comes up, I always refer to those verses that tell us about forgiving others, especially these two, “Whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses. But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses.” (Mark 11:25-26 NKJV)

Now I know that really doesn't help with this deep situation, but it's always something to keep in mind. Since forgiving this person is so hard to do, it might be a good idea to ask the Lord to help you forgive. "Lord, I know I'm supposed to forgive this person but his heinous acts against this child are very difficult to forgive. I know these things break Your heart as they do mine, so please help me obey Your Word and forgive this person." Or something like that.

I will surely be praying for you, the child, and the man, for all that is needed. ❤️ 🙏
 
Rebecca said:
I'm feeling called to understand this better and make sure I'm not also in sin.
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Rebecca, this is a thorny area. Our God is a big God and His stated desire is that all should come to Him.

I'm seeing verses that refer to forgiving before repentance, which is difficult, but shows God's reckless and amazing love for us even when we are in sin.
  • Jesus, while being crucified, prayed for His murderers: “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do” (Luke 23:34). Here, Jesus extends forgiveness before His killers repent, demonstrating a disposition of mercy even toward enemies.
  • Stephen, the Christian martyr, as he was being stoned, prayed: “Lord, do not hold this sin against them” (Acts 7:59-60). Stephen forgave in the moment, not waiting for repentance by his executioners.
  • Matthew 6:14-15 and Mark 11:25 teach: “For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you... Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone...” These verses do not specify the offender’s repentance as a precondition for forgiveness.
However, there's also this idea of conditional forgiveness where repentance is emphasized.
  • Luke 17:3-4 says: “If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.” This can be interpreted as forgiveness following repentance, but scholars note this may be focused more on reconciliation rather than the inner attitude of forgiveness.
  • God’s forgiveness is often conditioned on repentance in passages such as Acts 2:38: “Repent and be baptized... for the forgiveness of your sins”.
With that said, many theologians conclude that believers are called to maintain a forgiving, merciful disposition even toward unrepentant offenders, following the example of Jesus and Stephen. Forgiveness for one's own peace and spiritual well-being does not require reconciliation, which demands repentance and restoration. Releasing bitterness and vengefulness is consistently taught, regardless of the offender’s actions.

At the end of the day, while it is not ours to judge, we know that actions have consequences. (I believe that the closer we bring people to the cross, the more they'll want to repent and own the consequences for their actions.)

I have this idea that God forgives the sins that I confess, but He doesn't forget. Instead, I think He chooses to remember it (or hold it against me) no more. So we are each responsible for our actions, I think, and we will all receive the full measure of God's judgment.

At the end of the day, all I know how to do is pray and seek God's leading.
 
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What a mess. First of all, the whole thing is terrible. The part that to me is the worst part of the story is that the CHURCH did nothing about it!!! People are fallen, so sin is not all that surprising, but the church! Why have they continued to allow him to be in ministry? Are they even worthy of the name 'church'?
The Bible talks about if a brother is living in sin, to rebuke him, and if he does not repent, to go through a process of bringing his sin to light in the church.

Matthew 18: 15-17 "Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."

Now this of course does not excuse one from forgiving the offender, but the offender need not remain a blemish to the name of Christ and His Bride the Church.
 
I hurt for you, and for the unfortunate victim. While I can't give answers, I might offer observations that help me when I face truly horrible situations.

I've noticed many passages in Psalms and in various prophets that are thoroughly anguished cries, of the kind, "How long, Lord, will you allow this horrible thing to happen, or for evil people to continue to prosper without consequence?" Years ago, it seemed a little surprising that we were given examples of people almost scolding God, for things He'd allowed to happen.

Nowadays, it maybe seems that even back to ancient times, there have been people just as confused as I've been. We've all seen things we couldn't understand, and couldn't control. We've all been at a loss as to what we could do.

Thing is, it's not just me... not just you... it's included all of those people, as far back as we can imagine. Another thing we share with those long-ago people is that we've all known of a God who's very big, and very smart, and very much in control of everything in ways that we also can't imagine.

I hope I'm not being too trite or simplistic, but maybe the best we can do is to keep seeking His guidance and His understanding, and if we dare, ask Him for a chance to help out in some way. (And maybe to ask for the wisdom to spot the opportunity, only if and when it actually appears...)

Again, no real answers; just thoughts that have sorta helped me on my journey. They may or may not be all that helpful, but that's all I've got...
 
When someone wrongs you, they incur a debt. Restitution is required. You hold the debt in your hand.

To forgive is to declare the debt cancelled, to let it go and fall to the ground.

@Rebecca - If I may be so bold, the debt is not owed to you. You have laid hold of something not yours. Let it go, or it will turn cancerous in you.

But there is a place for protecting the weak, defending them from the unrepentant wrongdoer. To turn away is to enable the abuser to victimize others. When my wife and I worked with a program to help victims of childhood sexual abuse, the testimonies of the women in the small groups would make us so angry. We would struggle with this after every session. If such abuse angered us, how much more the Father?

I will say this. Almost every abuser in every testimony had multiple victims. This activity is spawned in hell, and hell is not satisfied with just one.
 
Sometimes it seems we have to rise above the appearances (which Jesus said to do), and consider that we are made in the image and likeness of God (who is Spirit) and aren't really these physical bodies. While on earth we closely identify as them but in eternity we won't have them. That said, we may want to pray that all parties involved (victim and perpetrator) be able to come in line to their true nature in God. I like what Rebecca said in the post above mine. Though it isn't your problem, I'm sure you want to fix it. But taking on ALL the problems of the world won't help your sanity. You need to be especially close to the Holy Spirit who will guide you as to what to do and what to say. But, as Rebecca insinuates, don't let it eat up your life.
 
What a terrible situation. So very, very sad and horrible. I will keep both you and the child in my prayers going forward.

What boggles my mind is how the church would continue to let him serve, knowing these terrible things about him. How have they not removed him from whatever position of service he holds? Especially if there is suspicion that he is doing it again. Even if there is not enough proof for the police to do something, the church could choose to step up and take action, I would think . . .
 
Rebecca: I am not trying to downplay your concern. We have something like that going on in our county. The man was, at one time, the minister or a church located not too far from our home. 26 months ago, he fled the jurisdiction of our police and our courts. He was 'on the run' with a girlfriend who, when she was apprehended, said she chose to help him because she didn't believe he did those things. The church he pastored has changed its name. The two of them were apprended because a friend of hers turned her in and then she told where the man was headed.

I am acquainted with part of his family. He can't get bond because he fled the jurisdiction. A friend of mine goes to church with his uncle and aunt.
This man in our town has a tentative court date of March 2026. If he is found guilty, he could face a lengthy prison sentence and a hefty fine.

All you and I can do is pray for these men.
 
Continuing to pray, Rebecca, for all concerned. These are very difficult times in which we live.
 
I hear “It’s leaving judgement up to God”. That doesn’t make sense when it comes to believers forgiving one another. How does one avoid thinking “But I am not like them” in a church setting with such an understanding? I believe “I forgive you” is biblical if it means “I will not hate you”. This way, the offended avoids the temptation to commit murder in their heart. This answers how to act on a personal level, even t@if a society’s laws may demand a severe sentence of criminal offenders.

Let’s not forget that one can forgive and legitimately not like.
 
This and other situations like it are quite frustrating as you want justice, yet must forgive as well. But the title of the thread also reminds me of a saying:

"To forgive is to set the prisoner free and find that the prisoner was you."
 
Forgiveness is for us, and it can be a process that starts with acknowledging the truth of God's word even when you have trouble feeling forgiveness. And some of these responses have been really great.

Are we allowed to recommend resources? I am a survivor of sexual abuse, and found healing in small groups at my church with a particular curriculum, although it's generally for the person who went through the abuse there might be some helpful things for people in the peripheral. Forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same thing and we are called to confront evil when necessary (Ephesians 5:11 and Proverbs 31:9 are just a couple examples)--though there are specific guidelines and processes in the Bible and for different organizations. If the authorities (police or within the church organization) cannot or won't do something, the best you can do in the natural is warn the mothers.

I would probably also be the one starting a prayer group specifically targeting this individual, and I would find scripture that apply about repentance and godly sorrow, along with a couple other things. I would strategize then launch into prayer and fasting for a designated period of time. The first portion of the prayer and fasting would be focused on handling things that I may need to repent of, asking God to create a clean heart in me. "Pray like it depends on God, and work like it depends on you."

My heart aches for your community. Forgiving does not mean he should be able to stay in a position of authority in the church, the potential for devastation is too great.
 
God is forgiving. This is not what the atonement which there is through Christ is for. There is God's uncompromising justice that is dealt with. God's plan was with this, God wants to forgive already.
 
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