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aredshaw

Christian Science Fiction

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I thought you might go there (but at least we're not talking rock monsters redeemed for helping Noah battle meat-eating rebels). The classic views seems compelling enough.

 

 

If God wanted us to be persuaded that He created other life in other places, I would think He would have made it as clear as He made angelic hosts, their purpose, their hierarchy, their history. I'm not set against alternate views but they'd need to fit with the rest of scripture to convince me and I just don't see it. I'm more a victim of pragmatism than anything.

 

So did he create the 'angelic host' here or in 'other places'? Did any rebel from their 'purpose'? Like say, to compulate with daughters of men? Too much of a tangent?

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I have said that the real world is only half of the whole picture, the other part being the spiritual realm described in scripture. As angelic hosts are spiritual I would guess they were created in the spiritual realm and they are active here (as evidenced by the stories of scripture).

 

 

For the discussion on aliens, I confine my comments to the physical realm (where 'other places' meant 'out there in the vastness of this physical Universe and this temporary creation).

 

 

(Heh. I started replying while you were editing. This next responds to your edited questions:)

 

 

Sure - scripture mentions the Nephilim. Much has been written on the topic. I don't know what to do with them. I lean toward the Sethite or Fallen Men views but for me it's not a hill to die on. In any event, I think the Nephilim all died in the great flood and that's the end of that. I personally don't think they were fallen angels or aliens for a variety of reasons but I won't argue if others do - I just don't know.

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I have said that the real world is only half of the whole picture, the other part being the spiritual realm described in scripture. As angelic hosts are spiritual I would guess they were created in the spiritual realm and they are active here (as evidenced by the stories of scripture).

 

And there's the crux. I respectfully disagree 100%...180 degrees...as far as east is from west. Of course we are entitled to our own claims of 5th grade reading comprehension... but we both cannot be right.

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What do you do with Hebrews 1:14?

 

 

14Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

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What do you do with Hebrews 1:14?

 

 

14Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

 

You need to check on a present tense verb in verse 7 of that chapter...And you forgot we have spirits too that can separate from our bodies and see and do things and talk (Paul and John) by God's pleasure and revelation.

 

 

What do you do with the angels that walked in to Sodom and physically pulled Lots family out. What do you do about the ones that copulated with women in Gensis 6 AND ALSO AFTER THAT (check Genesis 6:4--there goes your 'no Nephilim after the flood' theory that holds no water anyway with the giants in Philistia).

 

 

What do you do with the one Jacob wrestled. What do you do with the ones involved in battles throughout the bible...they physically killed people, had swords...some have entertained them unawares...one was in a war and prevented from coming to Daniel...

 

 

Dan.10:10 And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands...

 

 

...13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

 

 

Jesus' glorified nature was flesh and bone that could eat and Thomas could touch...and we are to be like him and we are said to be as the angles in heaven in our resurected BODY.

 

 

Matt 25:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven (not fallen that left their 'first estate', so don't use that evasion)

 

 

Angel's eat food that men can digest (as Jesus did AFTER the resurection) Psalm 78:

 

 

25 Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full.

 

 

But it's pointless to continue (and yes it goes on and on and on and on...I said the WHOLE bible), because you said:

 

 

Edit: I don't intend to debate you on your interpretation, I'm merely interested in the texts that lead you to your conclusion.

 

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Lydia,

 

 

So how does something like this help with our writing? Well, hopefully we won't presume another Christian writer is 'unBiblical' just because their view does not match our own. We (I include myself 100%) could be wrong...or just missing something that’s been there in plain view that our pre-conceived religious traditions have served as blinders to.

 

 

 

 

1 Cor. 13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal...

 

 

...12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

 

 

 

 

So in this topic of SCI-FI (this of ALL topics) we can have charity (yea I know I used it out of context) for others' imagination...and not be so quick to judge something as non-biblical. Of our own imaginations, the sky is scarce the limit--even as we endeavor to stay 'Biblical.'

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You need to check on a present tense verb in verse 7 of that chapter...And you forgot we have spirits too that can separate from our bodies and see and do things and talk (Paul and John) by God's pleasure and revelation.

 

Did I? I don't see that anywhere in this thread.

 

 

As I said earlier, I tend to subscribe to the Sethite or Fallen Men views and not the Fallen Angels view (or its subsidiary, the 'Fallen angels overtook men' view). As a result, I don't think angels of any stripe copulated with women.

 

 

I think Jacob wrestled with the pre-incarnate Christ.

 

 

I said I believe angelic hosts are spiritual beings created in the spiritual realm and you disagreed with me, hence my question. My understanding is angels are spirit-beings who also have the ability to interact with the physical world at God's pleasure. The post-resurrection body of Jesus had the ability to be both spiritual and physical - physical enough for Thomas to touch and believe, spiritual enough to appear and disappear, to walk through walls and so forth.

 

 

None of this compels me to believe there are physical aliens anywhere in scripture. Everything I've seen are created beings who had a clear purpose in God's creation. My problem with aliens is pragmatic - I don't see how they would fit in God's creation. People point to the vastness of space and wave their hands and say they can't believe there aren't other species out there, and I point to God and say if God didn't create them, they don't exist.

 

 

But perhaps our disconnect is in terminology. It seems apparent that we're using the same language but drawing different conclusions.

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Hi G. Lizard,

 

 

I agree. We should not judge one another on our belief or unbelief in alien life as we all have personal convictions on the matter. We are all entitled to our opinion. I begrudge no one this and as I mentioned before, believe that we can agree to disagree and still be friends. In the end, these issues won't even matter anymore, but loving our Lord and each other is all that truly matters.

 

 

Lydia

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As I said earlier, I tend to subscribe to the Sethite or Fallen Men views and not the Fallen Angels view...As a result, I don't think angels of any stripe copulated with women.

 

Really? Now this is sci-fi... How do men produce giants just by getting with good looking women? Or was Adam a giant and we are fallen? THe Sethites were less fallen than the women?

Is the 'sons of God' group different than the sons of God in Job?:

 

 

Job 1:6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

 

 

Job 38:4-7 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

 

 

Different group? I'm not trying to be as mocking as I sound...I'm just tracing it to the logical ends. I really want to know if you believe this.

 

 

But I'll go ahead and lay it on you:

 

 

Jude 1:6-7 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

 

 

Now man! If you're that hard headed...

 

 

Reading comprehension is a requisite to becoming a good writer. That is as clear as a bowling ball in a bath tub.

 

 

Now I am being mocking, I admit. Forgive me, brother. I will also have to admit with Paul that I am a chief when it comes to sinners. But we have to laugh at ourselves from time to time right?

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I admit, the idea that angels possess super bodies that can be both physical and defy the laws of physics (invisibility, walk through walls, etc) ala Jesus' resurrected body is an interesting thought. However, I still don't see anything the persuades me that those bodies have the same gender equipment that humans have. They don't marry or are given in marriage and they don't have little angel babies

 

 

The Jude passage is part of a section entitled The Sin and Doom of Ungodly People. He makes a statement in vs. 4 and then gives a series of distinct examples:

 

 

vs. 5 - the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt but later destroyed those who did not believe

 

 

vs. 6 - angels who abandoned positions of authority and are bound in chains in darkness waiting for Judgment Day

 

 

vs. 7 - the sexual immorality and perversion of Sodom and Gomorrah (interesting that this passage does not condemn those folks for not offering hospitality to strangers or what-not)

 

 

I didn't take those verses to speak to the same thing but as three separate examples of the same larger point. Perhaps I am wrong.

 

 

While this is an interesting discussion it still feel like a tangent. The angelic struggle is certainly fascinating as it plays games with the limited version of life that we ironically think of as 'reality' but I still don't see anything here the persuades me that scripture describes aliens as we understand the term in classic Science Fiction.

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I'm glad you at least admit you could be wrong. I will throw my hat in that ring too. !thumbsup! Let God be true and every man a liar.

 

 

But while leaving the dead horse there with interpretation of scripture (I will not offer any addition to the prior plethora) you raise question of pertinence. It is a good place to move on.

 

 

This 'hot' thread should transpose before the horse turns cold. I like the discussion of pertinence. Even with our widely differing views, Phy, I think it shows just how pertinent these subjects are.

 

 

As one that denies much of the spiritualization concept and tend to be extremly literal, I thought davidbergsland's comment was interesting. I had never intened to write a futuristic novel, but things change...as they tend to do:

 

 

Again, as a literalist: if the entire creation is going to be dissolved in fire in a 1000 years or so, it all seems pretty academic to me. :rolleyes:

 

I'd like to see others' opinions on this. I don't know if George Lucas was a Christian or at least thought he was, but could this be why he put THE icon of Sci-Fi ...long long ago? and far far away?

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Heh. I am frequently wrong - it's part of my charm. ;)

 

 

I'm a Pragmatist - pertinence and pragmatism would seem to go hand-in-hand. I get cranky when they don't. (Which is more often than you would think...)

 

 

As to George Lucas, I am on more familiar ground (I ran a space opera 'zine for seven years): I think Lucas simply wanted to distance his story from Earth and play in his own playground without having to be stringent with regard to our science, history, etc. This is a common Space Opera tactic.

 

 

http://www.cinelinx.com/movie-stuff/item/5648-25-things-that-star-wars-taught-us-about-making-movies.html

 

 

super-star-wars-super-nintendo-snes-a-long-time-ago-in-a-galaxy-far-far-away.jpg

 

Until Star Wars, science fiction movies almost always mentioned Earth. Either the films focused on people travelling from Earth or the film took place on Earth itself. In Star Wars, there is no mention of Earth besides the reference made in “A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away….”. This was really monumental as the film invited audiences to think bigger. Furthermore, it meant that Lucas could create his own universe without worrying about tying it into ours. Both gave audiences something they had not seen, and probably not even thought about before.

 

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I'd like to see others' opinions on this. I don't know if George Lucas was a Christian or at least thought he was, but could this be why he put THE icon of Sci-Fi ...long long ago? and far far away?

 

Hi Jon,

 

 

George Lucas has explained that his Star Wars trilogy was heavily based on Buddhist concepts. That's why the Force is impersonal, instead of God, who is three persons in one.

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Hi Jon,

George Lucas has explained that his Star Wars trilogy was heavily based on Buddhist concepts. That's why the Force is impersonal, instead of God, who is three persons in one.

 

That certainly makes sense, Kris. In any case, it did remove the story firmly into fantasy. I.E. some sci-fi, presented as some alternative and/or future representation of our world, can run diametrically opposed to certain Christian world view(s)...and some other religions for that matter.

 

 

There is some discernment there that may be profitable for a writer not wanting to contradict a scriptural world view.

 

 

I still hold, we know very little about the universe. And there is plenty of 'space' for the imagination to venture without directly contradicting God.

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Ok, Kris, I think I agree. But as a Christian, why would you want to put all that effort into a non-useful book (as far as the Kingdom is concerned)? Profit fits into the mammon category as far as I know. But maybe I just don't understand. Maybe vampires and werewolves really exist in some alternative universe, but is it helpful to write about such things that will at best merely entertain, and at worst will help further confuse nominal and non-believers? The same thing applies to aliens.

 

 

I did read an interesting book the other day which postulated demonic entities masquerading as aliens who were actually the antichrist and his cohorts. But though it was kind of a fun ride, it simply left a bad taste in my mind (to mix metaphors, I guess). It was a waste of time to read it and the story left spiritual debris which needed to be dealt with.

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It's a fraught area. CS Lewis had a go at speculative science fiction, with mixed results (apart from the theological issues, his choice of Mars and Venus as settings suffered badly when scientific expeditions discovered their barren nature). However, he was investigating questions of theological imagination: the "what if?" that we often wonder. What if there was a world that hadn't experienced the fall as we had? What if "cursed is the ground" only referred to this earth and not the whole universe? What if humans came into contact with a pre-fall civilisation? A fantasy or science-fiction setting seems to work well with these questions, because it's not restricted by the physics/zoology/history that comes with realist fiction.

 

 

I guess it's a Christian writer's responsibility to bring the reader back to the Biblical reality, even if they are playing with the "what ifs". A narrative that says, "Even if these things were true, Jesus is still the only way to God. God is still the sovereign creator over all." But I don't think it's necessarily wrong to ask the question.

 

 

This, I think is a separate issue to werewolves/vampires etc. But that's a topic for a different thread, I reckon! :)

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Wow, this is an oldie revived. :D;)

 

 

I've always thought vampires and werewolves were more in the fantasy genera than sci-fi. Then again, what if a story features a cast of vampires on a star ship? [mind explodes]

 

 

As for the Star Wars universe, I've always considered Star Trek its spiritual antithesis. Star Wars has the force and a whole caste (Jedi) dedicated to following it, while Star Trek generally treats religion as a primitive misunderstanding of a more technically advanced culture.

 

 

And the ultra-geek in me would chose a Sovereign-class star ship over a Star Destroyer any day. :cool::P

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A fantasy or science-fiction setting seems to work well with these questions, because it's not restricted by the physics/zoology/history that comes with realist fiction.

I guess it's a Christian writer's responsibility to bring the reader back to the Biblical reality... :)

 

I suppose I don't see biblical reality as all that restrictive. Quiet the opposite and awe inspiring, actually... ESPECIALLY in the realm of science yet to be discovered!

 

 

More to your question, David (I think), I have come to two principles:

 

 

1. Don't call it Christian if it is not. (ie there is no Christ). Good morals and clean lifestyles and no cussing does not qualify...can actually do more damage than good. All religions teach most of what 'practical' Christianity teaches. The person of Christ and the mystery of the Gospel are the differences.

 

 

2. If a premise does not lend to an overt Christian motif, that doesn't not give liberty to contradict scripture for profit, audience base, etc... I have to earn that with the writing skills God gives, without calling him a liar.

 

 

**2 1/2. Do not assume, just because a story is not a direct Christian premise that it is unprofitable. The book of Esther does not directly invoke 'Jehovah' but his providence is unmistakable.

 

 

SO, where does that leave the Sci-Fi genre? I would say mostly in my #2 category. God has not given me a sci-fi story I can plainly call Christian. And I won't pretend he has.

 

 

That said, I do have a story on the Romans 1:20 level, that I feel just as constrained to write. So I will write it, God willing. And while Rom 1:20 is not the gospel that saves, such has proven a school master leading many souls to the gospel that does.

 

 

Vampires ehh?...I got something on that too, but as other's have said, maybe for another day.

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The Gateway to Gannah series by Yvonne Anderson. If you want action/adventure with a scifi base and strongly Christian good guys and gals, read The Warrior Kind series by Guy Stanton. It has wonderful conversions, solid walking in the Spirit, and rollicking wonderful Christian marriages. (If you can't use serial fornication for the heroes, you have to get a different hero or heroine married for each book).

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