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1 hour ago, Ragamuffin_John said:

Of course, even meat eaters eat bugs.

 

At first I was going to say "how gross!" but I see your point!  I was a vegetarian before my stroke, and after my stroke my wife was concerned that I got more protein.  So now, I eat mainly vegetables, but I have my fair share of meat, too.

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20 hours ago, Shulammite said:

   Not what I was saying. I am saying meat was not as scarce as many are lead to believe.

 

If by "lead to believe," you mean the scholarly analysis of the archaeological record, then sure. Those analyses may not be perfect, but in the absence of contrary evidence (and you've provided precisely none...) they give us the best guess possible.

 

You are nonetheless entitled to your opinion. Evidence would be even better.

 

20 hours ago, Shulammite said:

As for your point of sacrificing to idols , I wasn't really focused on that. Yes that was a period before Christianity was instituted.  

 

Nope. As I mentioned, the Apostle Paul addresses it in the New Testament, under the topic of eating meat sacrificed to idols. It most certainly persisted into new Testament times. You may wish to reread my post -- carefully , this time --  in that I offered it as something that at least partially corroborates your comment about temple sacrifices providing meat to the public. Your claim that it applied in Jerusalem was fairly wild and extraordinary, though i pointed out that it at least applied in gentile cities, which Jerusalem was most certainly not...

 

By the way, i notice you did not respond to my request for some evidence to back up your claim that it did apply to Jerusalem. Not holding my breath, but still waiting...

 

 

20 hours ago, Shulammite said:

  There were many shepherds among the peoples and shepherds weren't rich , (those who owned their own flocks that is) but had meat. Doves  too and the sort were eaten etc.. Those who could not get , were mainly physically limited . But the poor had other ways besides the meat markets to get food -is my point.

 

You've stated the obvious -- that meat was available.  Not wanting to put words in your mouth, but you seem to then be leaping to a huge conclusion that this made it plentiful and affordable.  Again, you're entitled to your opinion, but the archaeological record suggests otherwise.

 

A lot of real work has been done studying these sites, and the quantity of meat consumption will match a couple of prominent markers. One is that meat consumption leaves residues in layers of cesspit sediment, since whatever gets eaten also gets "pooped out," later. The analysis techniques for this, while yucky-sounding, are actually quite sophisticated.

 

F'rinstance, they've determined that in the final, horrible weeks before the Babylonians punched thru Jerusalem's wall, resulting in the captivity, the residents of Jerusalem were largely eating weeds. The 18-month siege period had exhausted their food supply, and we can measure the grim picture of people slowly starving to death. Not quite relevant to the current discussion, except that it underscores how sophisticated our analysis techniques have become.

 

Anyway, the wider analysis finds they ate lots and lots and lotsandlotsandlots of plant material. It also sadly finds parasite eggs. lots of parasite eggs. The people had a huge share of health problems. Residue from meat consumption? In the wealthier parts of town, of course. Elsewhere? Not so much...

 

Another more obvious marker is the prevalence of bones (or lack of them) in the garbage pits. Even accounting for some decay (actually, not quite so bad, in as dry a land as we're looking at) you find the bones where you find the dwellings of the rich. Far, far fewer, elsewhere.

 

Anyway, you're welcome to provide contrary evidence. Will be waiting on this, too...

 

20 hours ago, Shulammite said:

   I feel many things today are bias when a personal narrative is the objective.  Meat was eaten more than people think. In my opinion slights toward meat eating is a passive aggressive approach . Like honestly who cares if people do or don't want to eat meat anyways? Those who do , well, need to go get lives and butt out of everyone else's.

   Point is , this topic has become more prevalent today with the 2020 " Vision" agenda that has been unfolding. Food scarcity and alternative options is the narrative . That in first world countries , which is odd. I notice an  "ancients were so limited and rudimentary " approach as a leaping point. As though they couldn't find meat. Lol! All the meat wasn't at the temple is my point.

  The ancients, poor or not ,could survive better here , today if some unfortunate event occurred, than people in the now.  Many were skilled hunters. The wilderness of the grocery store is hardly wrought with perils. Lol!

 

Shulammite.

 

You're welcome to add points for whatever discussion you'd like to promote; no problem there. Since it's irrelevant to my comments though, I'll leave these for others.

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1 hour ago, Ragamuffin_John said:

The congratulatory story cited a government official who said that the facility could restart operations, for it had figured out how to process meat with an acceptable level of insect parts per whatever unit of measurement.   Explaining this, I conclude we needn’t flagellate ourselves.  Why, we are consuming a full food chain! 😏

 

Yeah, insects are everywhere, and they of course get into the meat processing system. Also, they're everywhere else. There are government specifications for the number of insect parts per unit weight allowed into flour and other staple items. There's nothing odd about this. Since some insects are guaranteed to get in, the specs set a minimum level of cleanliness for the food processing facilities. They then require them to inspect sample batches of processed material, and to discard entire batches that don't meet the specs. (Or sell it to the dog-biscuit factories or something...) This then incentivizes the producers to properly maintain their facilities & train their people to follow the processes that keep most all of the insects out. They create a balance between keeping our food maximally clean, while not making it impossibly expensive to produce.

 

But our bodies are fully designed to handle ingesting bugs. If not, humanity would never have survived even to the point of inventing the wheel...

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5 hours ago, William D'Andrea said:

     What stew did Esau eat?

 

It was described as a red stew...possibly because of the red spices in it, or because it was made with red lentils. If it was anything like the lentil stews popular in the Mid East and Northern Africa today, it was pretty good stuff...though perhaps not worth giving up your birthright for.

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On 1/10/2022 at 2:42 PM, Wes B said:

While American vegetarian recipes tend to try to simulate the effect of meat, and do so poorly, a lot of recipes from Western India take veggies as they are, and make them spectacular. (It doesn't hurt to be somewhat acclimated to spicy foods...) They don't try to make the vegetables into something they're not, and have probably had a few thousand more years of practice to get their recipes right. 

 

You know, that’s a great point! I would instinctively turn to Indian foods for inspiration when trying to create tasty vegetarian dishes, but I never really thought of why.

 

 

On 1/10/2022 at 2:42 PM, Wes B said:

 

While folks in Biblical times enjoyed meat, most enjoyed it rarely, largely 'cuz it was very expensive, and most people were third-world-poor. They largely got their protein from chickpeas, lentils, and flatbreads made from barley (wheat was for the wealthy.) Their largest non-plant-based sources of protein were grasshoppers and locusts, which, once the legs were removed, could be toasted, ground up, and used to flavor their higher-quality bread loaves...

 

I think that’s still the case with much of the world today, which is largely vegetarian, though not necessarily by choice. People get good at making a very little bit of sometimes very strange meat go a long way.

 

My sister and her husband once rescued a pangolin (very rare creature a bit like a cross between an anteater and an armadillo) from a local meat market. They named it Pongo, of course, and planned to keep it as a pet. However it proved to be far too lively and inquisitive for their tiny house, so they ended up releasing it back into the forest.

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15 hours ago, Zee said:

 

 

It was described as a red stew...possibly because of the red spices in it, or because it was made with red lentils. If it was anything like the lentil stews popular in the Mid East and Northern Africa today, it was pretty good stuff...though perhaps not worth giving up your birthright for.

I have relatives in Spain, and I’ve got to say that their lentil soup is fantastic—on my must have list every time I go back—up there with paella, cafe con leche, and oven-fired bread (“pan de leña”)

Edited by Ragamuffin_John
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34 minutes ago, Ragamuffin_John said:

I have relatives in Spain, and I’ve got to say that their lentil soup is fantastic—on my must have list every time I go back—up there with paella, cafe con leche, and oven-fired bread (“pan de leña”)

 

I've only been to Spain once, but was mightily impressed by the vast varieties of ham. A breakfast buffet at one hotel had 4 or 5 varieties, none like our ham over here, and each was amazing. (Not that our domestic hams aren't tasty, but compared to their Spanish counterparts, ours are all nearly identical...) Going into various shops that had rows of whole pig's legs hanging from the ceiling was a continual reminder of all those different, tasty hams.

 

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16 minutes ago, Wes B said:

 

I've only been to Spain once, but was mightily impressed by the vast varieties of ham. A breakfast buffet at one hotel had 4 or 5 varieties, none like our ham over here, and each was amazing. (Not that our domestic hams aren't tasty, but compared to their Spanish counterparts, ours are all nearly identical...) Going into various shops that had rows of whole pig's legs hanging from the ceiling was a continual reminder of all those different, tasty hams.

 

I’m salivating reading this.  Oh yeah.  Jamón Serrano you easily get at at a bar/restaurant.   Jamón de York for daily consumption.  Jamón de bellota (acorn fed)—ugh, I’ve got to stop.   Sandwiches:   anytime I’d meet an American new to Spain’s food, I’d caution them to go slowly on the bread at first, novice eaters have to develop callouses at the roof of the mouth to avoid real soreness).

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An iteration:  what’s to prevent the development of plant-based plant meals?  Not  just flavors but whole side dishes of. 
 

For the future:   put your base, like some kind of dough in a bowl.  Empty a liquid that is labeled with the name of your favorite dish, say “meatloaf”, mix, then wait 20 minutes for the chemical reaction to yield the desired texture and taste.  Then heat up.  Of course, to not disturb the customer, it will be called a “re-imagination” rather than “chemical reaction”.
 

My first stab at Sci-Fi writing.

Edited by Ragamuffin_John
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1 hour ago, Ragamuffin_John said:

I’m salivating reading this.  Oh yeah.  Jamón Serrano you easily get at at a bar/restaurant.   Jamón de York for daily consumption.  Jamón de bellota (acorn fed)—ugh, I’ve got to stop.  

 

Up 'til this point it had not occurred to me, but of course all those different hams had names I could have learned, so as to be able to ask for them again, later. Ah, well...

 

 

1 hour ago, Ragamuffin_John said:

Sandwiches:   anytime I’d meet an American new to Spain’s food, I’d caution them to go slowly on the bread at first, novice eaters have to develop callouses at the roof of the mouth to avoid real soreness).

 

Okay, now this might sound a bit weird, but when there are lots of other one-time-only options available, I'll usually skip the bread, so as to have lots more room for the rest. So I've clearly missed something. What is it about the bread that requires special care?

 

59 minutes ago, Ragamuffin_John said:

An iteration:  what’s to prevent the development of plant-based plant meals?  Not  just flavors but whole side dishes of. 
 

For the future:   put your base, like some kind of dough in a bowl.  Empty a liquid that is labeled with the name of your favorite dish, say “meatloaf”, mix, then wait 20 minutes for the chemical reaction to yield the desired texture and taste.  Then heat up.  Of course, to not disturb the customer, it will be called a “re-imagination” rather than “chemical reaction”.

 

I'm gonna suspect that "re-imagination" has been a part of the Human Experience, for as long as there've been humans. I've also had a chance to visit Scotland, and was quite comfortable with the haggis, despite knowing what goes into it. While not quite plant-based, it shows how people have been able to take almost anything and make it tasty, provided it was all they had, and ingenuity could couple with the longing for a tasty meal.

 

We are remarkably fortunate in that we have so many options that we can afford to express a dislike for certain food items. The brilliant inventor of haggis was faced with the wretched remaining entrails of a slaughtered carcass, after every possibly useful part had already been removed, and made the remaining garbage tasty, because there was no other choice. (And did it brilliantly...)

 

Humans can find a way to make almost anything tasty...

 

 

 

 

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Wes, what the Spaniards call a “bara de pan” ( a “bar” is an apt way of remembering that) is a type of loaf that has the shape of a skinny “french bread” in the U.S.  It’s crust is tough by U.S. standards,  which can scuff the roof of the mouth of those who are not used to it—kind of like the effect of putting too hot a spoonful of soup in the mouth and feeling scorched.

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Ragamuffin_John said:

Wes, what the Spaniards call a “bara de pan” ( a “bar” is an apt way of remembering that) is a type of loaf that has the shape of a skinny “french bread” in the U.S.  It’s crust is tough by U.S. standards,  which can scuff the roof of the mouth of those who are not used to it—kind of like the effect of putting too hot a spoonful of soup in the mouth and feeling scorched.

 

Amazing... I seem to have missed that entirely on my visit. How I stepped around such an obvious staple just amazes me. My visit was almost entirely in the region of Andalucia. Would that have made any difference? Also, I was in a tour group. Perhaps the meals specifically prepared for us avoided any items where the silly tourists were likely to hurt themselves...

 

BTW... your mention of cafe con leche above... that experience has changed how I prepare most of my coffee, nowadays. I mean, I still sometimes just want to appreciate the raw flavor of a special coffee roast, and when I'm not, I mostly only have skim milk at home, but the coffee I now just prepare for myself is often proportioned completely differently from the "standard" ways over here. (When I make a pot of coffee just for myself, I'll often make it doubly or triply strong, to offset the increased milk, and as long as I'm adding something to the coffee anyway, I may mix in some other things too, but cafe con leche gave me a very different outlook on the possibilities...)

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Wes, …and I never got to Andalucía.   But, I’ve got to believe that all types are available everywhere there.  My favorite is actually “pan integral” (multigrain).   When I bought some in Zaragoza, it was dark, round, and weighed a lot.   Incredibly good with peanut butter.   The only breads that I have liked as much from other countries are the Turks’ “Ekmek” and the Danish rye (that in the US stores I get at places like Aldi’s).

 

Well now, you like earthy coffee like me.  In Spain, ask for a “cafe solo” (i.e. without milk).  You get it in a small cup, but boy is it strong.   Best to have it after a meal or with a snack.   I had a “cafe doble” once and stared at the ceiling at night for hours it seemed.   
 

Anerican-style.   In a “Joe DiMaggio”-style pot that marks 4 “cups” (Lilliputian measures I think), I have to have at least 2 to 3 heaping scoops of ground coffee.   Oddly, strong black coffee with eggs each morning keeps my hypoglycemia in-check. I also chunk some organic Sri Lanken cinnamon in the cup for additional blood sugar benefit.  Signing off—going to make some Joe…

Edited by Ragamuffin_John
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1 hour ago, Ragamuffin_John said:

Oddly, strong black coffee with eggs each morning keeps my hypoglycemia in-check. I also chunk some organic Sri Lanken cinnamon in the cup for additional blood sugar benefit.  Signing off—going to make some Joe…

 

Really?  Sri Lanken cinammon, huh?  I'll have to try that, since I'm diabetic.  Thanks!

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2 hours ago, Ragamuffin_John said:

Wes, …and I never got to Andalucía.   But, I’ve got to believe that all types are available everywhere there.  My favorite is actually “pan integral” (multigrain).   When I bought some in Zaragoza, it was dark, round, and weighed a lot.   Incredibly good with peanut butter.   The only breads that I have liked as much from other countries are the Turks’ “Ekmek” and the Danish rye (that in the US stores I get at places like Aldi’s).

 

It's amazing how something as simple and basic as bread can have so many wonderful variations, around the world. My wife's family is from Lebanon, and they can make this amazing flatbtead that's oiled up as a thin sheet of dough, coated with the za'atar mix that I think I mentioned above in this thread, and thrown to cook right on top of a sizzly-hot surface.  It's just wonderful.

 

2 hours ago, Ragamuffin_John said:

Well now, you like earthy coffee like me.  In Spain, ask for a “cafe solo” (i.e. without milk).  You get it in a small cup, but boy is it strong.   Best to have it after a meal or with a snack.   I had a “cafe doble” once and stared at the ceiling at night for hours it seemed.   

 

If I'm ever fortunate enough to get back to Spain, I'll remember that. My wife's family makes this extra strong after dinner coffee that's boiled in water three times in a special pot, then decanted into these tiny cups that would be too small to use even as a coffee scoop. It's very nice, but powerful enough that if you had any inclination to doze off on that full belly, your plans would change, abruptly...

 

 

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Passionate rant coming... not aimed at anyone here. 🙂 

 

I'm a person who believes in freedom of choice when it comes to diet. I don't like the fact that people want to create a "better than thou" attitude over what they eat. If people want to eat a specific diet, that's fine. Just don't assume that diet is good for everyone, and I speak from personal experience.

 

About 6 years ago I discovered that I was suffering from several nutritional deficiencies (most sub-clinical and not even recognized by doctors because in the process of educating myself, I discovered 99% of them don't understand nutrition) and of course, out of control weight issues. Apparently I'd been having health issues that nobody understood because I didn't ask the right questions, but after I did, I discovered I have insulin resistance which in turn leads to fatty liver disease and was well on my way to several other diseases because of it, and that lead me to a Ketogenic diet, and has been a lifesaver. So the idea of being put on a plant based diet is abhorrent to me.

 

I'm not a perfect adherent to the diet. Too many things my taste buds overrule me on, but pay for the following day/week. I'm more aimed at low carb than going full on Atkins or carnivore diet. That's fine for some, not for me. Getting grains mostly out of my diet helped, not because of the removal of gluten, but because of the removal of heavy Glyphosate concentrations (Roundup) which, don't let anyone fool you, is dangerous and there's lots of independent research proving it. Avoiding unfermented soy ingredients removed most of the hormone disruption I was having that had been causing other endocrine issues. Adding in lots of specific supplements ended neuropathy, metabolic issues and inflammation (don't get me started on sodium chemical additives. I miss my Doritos.)

 

For those who want to eat ants and roaches and crickets, fine and dandy. Just don't pretend it's more moral to deprive yourself. You don't want to eat cute animals, you go ahead. I'll have as much of Babe, Bambi and Ferdinand as I can afford to. 

 

The point is that we should never shame others or elevate ourselves to think we're better or they're worse for specific dietary choices. I eat this way because I have discovered it's what makes my body work right. I see my wife eating fruit, peanuts or anything high in carb that I used to love and I just sigh and wish my body wasn't so broken on a cellular level. 

 

God allows we Christians to eat what we want. No dietary restrictions to my understanding (Acts 11). Everyone should be listening to the body. What infuriates me on it, are those who are creating products knowing that they cause harm and disease while funding "science" to support their profits and hide the danger. (Looking at you Sugar Industry). That's the problem is that they line item lawsuits and harm in to their profits and then don't care when their deception and snake oil cause harm by illness and destroy the of quality life for people fooled into thinking these things are safe to eat.

 

In the end, if you want to remain Kosher, that's fine. Vegan, okie dokie! If you want to eat Halal, you do you (I can't because meat is butchered in a manner that is sacrificial to Allah and since I know this, I can't knowingly partake as per my own conscience).  The point is, I know what benefits me, and would share such things to others whom it may help, but never would I consider this to make me better than them for not adhering to some dietary religious behavior of my own divining. 🙂

 

Anyway, nutrition and diet are one of my passionate subjects because it's helped me so much. I'm off to have some keto pancakes. 😉 No attacks meant on anyone. Any offense is purely accidental.

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On 1/11/2022 at 7:14 PM, Zee said:

 

 

it was pretty good stuff...though perhaps not worth giving up your birthright for.

We don't know how good a cook Jacob was, do we?  😉 

 

LOL... just made me think of Epic Rap Battles of History: Gordon Ramsey vs. Julia Child. Language warning if you watch it, but it's an absolute scream.

 

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    When it comes to eating, I'm not fussy. Every morning with breakfast, I have a cup of Folger's Instant Coffee.  It's good enough for me.  I'm also on a high fiber diet, and take nutritional supplements.

    I also take a 15 minute walk to, and back from, the local Stop & Shop super market, every day.  When I'm there I stroll along the aisles, browsing.  Then I go to a bagel shop in the same Shopping Center, where I have a cup of brewed coffee.  After that, I go back to the Stop & Shop, and brows along the aisles again.  This time I pick up a few food items, which I purchase.  Then I walk back home with them in shopping bags.  So I'm on my feet and walking about an hour and 15 minutes every day. 

    I'm 76 years old, and in very good shape for a man my age.

    I must be doing something right.

Edited by William D'Andrea
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