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On 6/14/2021 at 5:50 PM, suspensewriter said:

The books that I have published are written so they never mention the color of the people. 

I'm Black. I wrote a book with a Black heroine. A reviewer complained that she couldn't tell from my writing that the heroine was a person of colour. The only reason she knew the character was Black was because of the cover art. Apparently, I needed to make it clear in the manuscript that this person wasn't Caucasian. (For the record, I mentioned in a couple of places that she had brown skin, and I fully describe her family members).

 

I was puzzled by the reviewer's comment. It never occured to me to emphasise this character's race in any special way, because it wasn't germane to the story. Her race didn't make any more difference to the storyline than her hair or eye colour.

 

All this to say... you can never go far enough to placate some people. Write a good story, apply common sense and kindness. That's as much as I'm willing to do.

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4 hours ago, EBraten said:

All this to say... you can never go far enough to placate some people. Write a good story, apply common sense and kindness. That's as much as I'm willing to do.

 

That's all any writer can (and should) do.

 

If there's one thing I try to get through to new writers is that no matter how good you might be, there will always be critics of your work. Sometimes that criticism can be useful. The trick is to know how to sift out the gains of truth in order to make your writing better, while not falling into despair in the process.  

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6 hours ago, Accord64 said:

If there's one thing I try to get through to new writers is that no matter how good you might be, there will always be critics of your work. Sometimes that criticism can be useful. The trick is to know how to sift out the gains of truth in order to make your writing better, while not falling into despair in the process.  

 

That's well said, @Accord64!

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On 6/14/2021 at 6:01 PM, Amosathar said:

It seems to be that in the last decade or more PC had become so out of whack no one could be honest and say something without malice and yet it be taken out of context. I wonder if this call towards tolerance and sensitivity will only grow and get worse to the point where society won't accept anything negative being said about anyone or anything at all. I wonder how long it will be before the concept of being a sinner is seen as discrimination. 

Good point.  It's a shame that society has progressed to be so sensitive like this.  I teach in a public school, trying to be salt and light.  I find it very ironic how we are to teach our students to be tolerant to all belief systems, yet society is terribly intolerant of Christianity!  Gets me mad.

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4 hours ago, JonathanRuth said:

Good point.  It's a shame that society has progressed to be so sensitive like this.  I teach in a public school, trying to be salt and light.  I find it very ironic how we are to teach our students to be tolerant to all belief systems, yet society is terribly intolerant of Christianity!  Gets me mad.

 

 As Christians, we may be at a disadvantage, in that we'll at least try to sincerely mean what we say, and then incorrectly presume that the rest of the world does the same. I'm sure that some people calling for tolerance don't even recognize that they do the exact opposite towards people like us. Others are probably charlatans who understand it all too well, but internally set qualifications for who is "deserving" of their supposed tolerance. (Not sayin' that there aren't Christians who'll express the same kind of error...)

 

I will be cautious not to tread on anyone's end-times theology, but when we look at the way all believers are eventually going to be treated, the current doublespeak seems almost to be a sine qua non for getting the world to that point.

 

It can make us sad, but we probably needn't be surprised...

 

 

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We are disadvantaged as Christians because everything in the world by default is against what we stand for because of the inherent sinful nature, they will always be against what we stand for because holiness only shines a light on all the dark places they want to keep hidden. 

 

For instance it is only the revered names of God and Jesus Christ that are used as curse words, no other religious references are used in such a foul way. 

 

The world rarely says what it means, let alone the truth. The normal mindset of our sinful self is to be deceptive by nature so we shouldn't be surprised when the world is that way, even if it doesn't make sense. I bet that most people who feel that way don't really know deep down why they feel that way, they just do because they aren't in touch with their sinful nature or aware of it, it's just part of who they are.

 

There is a song by Matthew West called "Let the truth be told" and part says "Truth be told, The truth is rarely told, now"

 

We can pray for the world to get better, but it is spinning towards it's destiny and it isn't going to get better, slowly worse as things that don't make sense to us increase. For instance this overwhelming focus on pronouns for people instead of gender .... this is just the newest lie the enemy is using to distract people away from God and who he created them to be.

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11 hours ago, Amosathar said:

We can pray for the world to get better, but it is spinning towards it's destiny and it isn't going to get better, slowly worse as things that don't make sense to us increase. For instance this overwhelming focus on pronouns for people instead of gender .... this is just the newest lie the enemy is using to distract people away from God and who he created them to be.

 

Wow!  Well said, @Amosathar.  Boy, this thread has so much to talk about!

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20 hours ago, Wes B said:

As Christians, we may be at a disadvantage, in that we'll at least try to sincerely mean what we say, and then incorrectly presume that the rest of the world does the same.

 

16 hours ago, Amosathar said:

We are disadvantaged as Christians because everything in the world by default is against what we stand for because of the inherent sinful nature, they will always be against what we stand for because holiness only shines a light on all the dark places they want to keep hidden. 

 

 

No we're not disadvantaged.

 

We're the new counter-culture.

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On 6/16/2021 at 2:48 PM, Accord64 said:

If there's one thing I try to get through to new writers is that no matter how good you might be, there will always be critics of your work. Sometimes that criticism can be useful. The trick is to know how to sift out the gains of truth in order to make your writing better, while not falling into despair in the process.  

There's one thing I've cautioned new writers about: if criticism wounds you, then don't read reviews of your work on Amazon, because there WILL be negative comments from time to time (not every story is every reader's cuppa). It's too easy to become paralyzed by a reviewer's negative opinion which may or may not have merit. It's much more worthwhile to sift out the grains of truth from crit partners' evaluations.

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53 minutes ago, Jeff Potts said:

 

 

 

No we're not disadvantaged.

 

We're the new counter-culture.

 

I think it can be easy to fixate on a single word, while missing the actual statement being made. Not trying to read minds, but the comments from both of you seem to miss what it can mean to be at a disadvantage. This is very (!!!) different from "being disadvantaged," which I never said (makes no sense in this context...) yet you both seem to have seen, somehow...

 

When Christians presume an opponent is trying to make a logical argument rather than an excuse, their disadvantage lies in not seeing what's actually happening. If the Christians try to express themselves sincerely, and presume the same from others, they can then misinterpret what those others are doing: a meaningful disadvantage. it's always better to understand what's really happening, rather than to argue over what people meant in the original discussion, or whether they're contradicting themselves.

 

That said, I heartily agree we're counter cultural (as was Jesus...)

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4 hours ago, Wes B said:

When Christians presume an opponent is trying to make a logical argument rather than an excuse, their disadvantage lies in not seeing what's actually happening. If the Christians try to express themselves sincerely, and presume the same from others, they can then misinterpret what those others are doing: a meaningful disadvantage. it's always better to understand what's really happening, rather than to argue over what people meant in the original discussion, or whether they're contradicting themselves.

 

I had to read that three times to understand it, @Wes B!  But I think I agree😀.

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12 hours ago, Tommie Lyn said:

There's one thing I've cautioned new writers about: if criticism wounds you, then don't read reviews of your work on Amazon, because there WILL be negative comments from time to time (not every story is every reader's cuppa).

 

I've seen writers adopt this strategy. I suppose it could work, but I also feel it's like burying your head in the sand. It'll work for a while, but sooner or later you have to face the criticisms. It comes with the job. That's why I think it's best to learn how to deal with them early by developing that thick skin, but not too thick or you'll miss helpful input that will improve your writing.

 

 

 

 

   

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8 hours ago, suspensewriter said:

 

I had to read that three times to understand it, @Wes B!  But I think I agree😀.

 

Very sorry, @suspensewriter... I usually treat my posts as little writing projects & I edit them carefully. I think I dropped the ball on this one.

 

When I have to refer simultaneously to two different posts, it can get messy. When those two posts are from different places in a topic drift, it can also become opaque. I did not help.

 

One reference was to point out that our wonderfully rich English language has many idioms that we can easily mix up. So "being disadvantaged" and "being at a disadvantage" can mean radically different things. I was not blaming the gentlemen who misread and simply fixated on "disadvantage," because as writers, it's we who are responsible to make everything clear to our audience. Unless people are deliberately looking for something to disagree with (not likely, here...) we ought to be able to express ourselves clearly most all the time. Yet in trying to clear the waters, I tossed in a little mud, too...

 

The other reference was to what I'd been referring to in my earlier post that they misread. While people may be intolerant in their preaching about being tolerant, we as Christians can be at a disadvantage when we take such statements as literal fact, rather than the rationalizations they're intended to be. Such sanctimony on tolerance has always really meant limited tolerance for an approved elite. We were never included in that, but their sanctimony tends to fade if they have to point that out.

 

For those of us who are consumed with being accurate, this is a classic motte and bailey fallacy, where a speaker has two definitions for a word or phrase. The obvious definition makes them look good, while they'll retreat to the second definition when forced to defend themselves. These people use it constantly, are probably totally unaware they're even doing it, and it pretty much lets them completely dismiss any attempt to call them out on it.

 

Fortunately, this world is not our hope; we're sojourners here, passing through on our way home...

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14 hours ago, Tommie Lyn said:

There's one thing I've cautioned new writers about: if criticism wounds you, then don't read reviews of your work on Amazon, because there WILL be negative comments from time to time (not every story is every reader's cuppa). It's too easy to become paralyzed by a reviewer's negative opinion which may or may not have merit. It's much more worthwhile to sift out the grains of truth from crit partners' evaluations.

 

While I agree with you, I think we have to make the distinction between a reader's review and a reviewer's review.  A good reviewer will point out the flaws - if they are in the writing - but they will also point out what does work/good.  Often readers will just state whether they liked/disliked a story. Some writers even review with the aim of trashing other people's works.

 

My take is reading reviews whether good or bad, is part of developing your writing, but you have the right as a writer to ditch the ill founded comment i.e I didn't like xyz' as oppose to 'I didn't like xyz because of abc.' The difference is one a subjective comment without qualification whereas the second seeks to give some rationale to their opinion. There maybe something in there of benefit to you as the writer.

 

That why it is some frustrating when you get a reject email - they don't identify the cause of the rejection so you can improve upon the work.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Wes B said:

Unless people are deliberately looking for something to disagree with (not likely, here...) we ought to be able to express ourselves clearly most all the time. Yet in trying to clear the waters, I tossed in a little mud, too...

 

That's okay--it's always fun to read your posts!  And educational, too!😀

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7 hours ago, Accord64 said:

 

I've seen writers adopt this strategy. I suppose it could work, but I also feel it's like burying your head in the sand. It'll work for a while, but sooner or later you have to face the criticisms. It comes with the job. That's why I think it's best to learn how to deal with them early by developing that thick skin, but not too thick or you'll miss helpful input that will improve your writing.

 

 

 

 

   

There is a difference in facing the criticisms from crit partners or beta readers and facing the sometimes ugly comments that readers can make (if you don't happen to share and promote their personal beliefs/ideology), which, in the main, are NOT helpful. 

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8 hours ago, Shamrock said:

My take is reading reviews whether good or bad, is part of developing your writing

Not necessarily (or, as Professor Lillolman said in Mel Brooks' satirical comedy High Anxiety, "Don't tell ME what's nessa, I'll tell YOU what's nessa.") I know that some writers like to read reviews to bask in the ones bearing glowing praise, but some writers -- good ones -- become paralyzed by them and the negative reviews have destructive influence on their writing. I've seen it happen. Which is why I give that advice. If you're a writer who is like a duck and can let it roll off your back, then fine, read the reviews. Otherwise......
 

 

 

Edited by Tommie Lyn
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1 hour ago, Ky_GirlatHeart said:

@Tommie Lyn Hehe, I liked that!

I can't help but chuckle every time I see it, and I like to inject a bit of levity into serious discussions sometimes. My family likes to laugh, and we appropriated a number of lines from that movie that we use. Like the one in the clip. And like the one where Harvey Korman's character was denied his fruit cup because he was late to supper, and he asked the man seated next to him at the table how the fruit cup was. The man said (rubbing it in because Korman didn't get a fruit cup), "All fresh. Nothing canned. Even the pineapple." We use that A LOT, but often shorten it to "even the pineapple." We all know what we're referring to, and it gives us a laugh. 

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