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I believe a popular misconception is that Satan and the fallen angels rule Hell right now and they are involved in tormenting the souls there. 
 

We find in Rev 20:10 Satan is thrown into it to be tormented day and night forever. (I believe the fallen angels are also thrown in there at this time.)
 

Does that mean in this misconception that Satan is preserved from the torment until he and the others are thrown in to suffer? I find this hard to believe. 
 

I would like to know the Scriptures where people have come up with this belief that Satan rules Hell. 

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SFG, I moved your thread here on its own. It was on an old thread and might have gotten missed. I'll try to get back to this. Also, I hope you'll hop over to Meet and Greet and introduce yourself so everyone will know you are here and can welcome you. :D

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Unfortunately, there are lots of misconceptions out there about the Bible and Christianity. This is certainly one of them. I think this is a cultural, but also an old traditional thought that I believe stems from the idea of Satans power over this world as the original instigator of sin and death. I  wonder if it could have been a mixture of greek mythology and Christianity that gave rise to the idea. Not sure, but I don't think it's biblical. Here's a link that gives some great biblical references to who Satan is in the Bible. 

 

https://www.gotquestions.org/Satan-power.html

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Revelation 20 as a whole chapter works for me to answer you're "where?" Have you read it as a whole? It's mind-boggling to me, and I say that after studying it just a few months ago. I'm no deep theologian, so I count on commentators to help me. They failed. And they failed because no one on earth will ever completely understand Revelation. (Hey. Heaven and earth will be destroyed, so I'm figuring no one on earth ever. 😚)

 

I'm not saying it's false or wrong. It's imagery of a huge vision from a guy who lived 2000 years ago in a different culture. It can't be understood completely now. It couldn't be understood completely then.

 

BUT Revelation 20 works for why I have trouble figuring it out. Check out the state-of-being verbs. Past tense, present tense, future tense, past perfect, present perfect, and future perfect intermingle in that one chapter so often, if it was critiqued as a modern story, every writer would be scolding that writer for not keeping his tense the same. But that's God's words, so it's real, and here I am 2000 years later agreeing with it, not getting it, and stuck wondering if the thousand years already happened, is happening, (doubt it), will happen, or all of the above.

 

BUT love the ending. God wins!

 

God wins. God wins. God wins.

 

And loved that everyone got ever so excited every time the Lamb spoke. That's saying something from creatures who don't sin.

 

To me that's the good stuff. Satan? Merely a temporary problem that God already resolved.

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Revelations 20 is an amazing, and confusing chapter, it is true. however, I don't think it is a good answer to "where" the idea that Satan rules over hell comes from. The chapter is pretty clear satan was imprisoned and bound for 1000 years, then once set free, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur to be tormented day and night forever. 

 

Praise God we know who wins in the end! However, i think @SpecFictionGuy's point was to point out a misconception a lot of people have about Satan ruling hell and torturing souls in hell, etc. since it's not really biblically supported.

 

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The wicked are the children of the devil (Matt. 13:38).

The wicked are punished together with the devil and his angels in everlasting fire (Matt. 25:41).

Therefore, it is safe to say, the devil rules over his children in hell just as he rules over them in the world.

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3 hours ago, KMK said:

The wicked are the children of the devil (Matt. 13:38).

The wicked are punished together with the devil and his angels in everlasting fire (Matt. 25:41).

Therefore, it is safe to say, the devil rules over his children in hell just as he rules over them in the world.

I would disagree... your conclusion doesn't necessarily follow from your premises.  The wicked are punished with the devil in everlasting fire, but the piece missing there would be the devil is punished. I don't think he would be in any position to rule over anyone in eternal torment, but I could be wrong. It could very well be, but that would be conjecture.

 

However, this is prophecy of the coming end, not current times. The issue originally brought up is a misconception that Satan resides in hell currently, rules over it, and tortures the souls within. The Bible is pretty clear that Satan still roams the earth (1 Peter 5:8) as the "“prince,” “god,” or “ruler” of this world (John 14:30; cf. John 12:31; 16:11; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4; Ephesians 2:2)" 

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14 hours ago, SpecFictionGuy said:

I would like to know the Scriptures where people have come up with this belief that Satan rules Hell. 

 

I was simply answering your original question as to where this belief comes from. It goes farther than I am willing to, as the Bible is silent on the 'politics' of eternal torment.

Edited by KMK
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18 hours ago, Jared Williams said:

Revelations 20 is an amazing, and confusing chapter, it is true. however, I don't think it is a good answer to "where" the idea that Satan rules over hell comes from. The chapter is pretty clear satan was imprisoned and bound for 1000 years, then once set free, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur to be tormented day and night forever. 

 

Praise God we know who wins in the end! However, i think @SpecFictionGuy's point was to point out a misconception a lot of people have about Satan ruling hell and torturing souls in hell, etc. since it's not really biblically supported.

 

When does Revelation happen? Past, present or future? 

 

Trick question. It's D. All of the above.

 

God created time and space, so heaven is outside that. Now, care to tackle when that 1000 years of Satan was/is/will be bound part happened/happens/will happen? (One of many things my commentators could not agree on.)

 

Because I see him in Eden, see him with God at the beginning of Job, see him with Jesus in the wilderness, see him in Calligula, Attila the Hun, Henry VIII, Stalin, and Saddem Hussian. When was Satan bound? And, since God is the creator of time and space too, it really has already happened, yet, hasn't happened, and will happen. At least, to him. We're stuck in time, so cannot tell much of Revelation's timeline. Some commentators even suggest the timeline is repeated seven times in there.

 

I do truly believe that what we focus on is where we'll go. Focusing on Satan is exactly where Satan wants us to go. Which is why I suggested focusing on God.

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There are numerous things written in Scripture that could be taken as definitions of what some might call "Hell."

 

There is Sheol, or the pit - the place of the dead, the place under the earth.  This is often translated into the Greek equivalent of Hades, and while we think of Hades as Hell, it is actually just the land of the dead.  I think all of it is more metaphorical, meaning the slumbering of souls after death.  Most connotations of someone of something coming up from the ground can be represented as coming from Sheol.

 

Then there is the lake of fire mentioned in Revelations - this is a true place of torment.  Fire and brimstone, unquenchable fire...you get the drift.

 

Then there are the inferences from various passages of their being an actual Hell where condemned souls go.  There is also references to the Devil or Satan which I'd write off as metaphor, except Jesus uses them all of the time.  He also drives out demons, and was tempted.  So, if I am to follow Christ, I need to also acknowledge these things.

 

But I also have to acknowledge the boundless, unfathomable love of God.  If all life is precious to him, and all souls - saved or not - are loved by him, I cannot fathom even the unsalvageable to be obliterated from existence.  So, there has to be a place for them in the world to come.

 

Hell, I think, is real.  There are those who have died and come back from there, their lives ultimately changed for the better.  It is a place outside of the sight of God, occupied by denizens who WANT to live outside the sight of God.  God, after all, giving them what they most desire.  And as we've seem by the continual denigration of undeniable truths, and the rejection of God, one can only imagine what such a place would be.  A place where the condemned live in eternal fear, because this is all they know, and all they care to know.  A place where you can call someone a friend, and stab him in the back a second later, and have the same thing done to you.  A place of eternal grudges, feuds, and strife.

 

I could be wrong about this, but I don't think that matters.  God wants me - and the rest of us - to set our sights higher.

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On 2/23/2020 at 10:58 AM, Spaulding said:

I do truly believe that what we focus on is where we'll go. Focusing on Satan is exactly where Satan wants us to go. Which is why I suggested focusing on God.

I don't think focusing on something will alter where we go - obsessing or ONLY focusing on something will most certainly do that, and there is a line somewhere in between there which is very difficult to determine (and probably different for different people)  

 

But... to ignore or refuse to consider an issue is just as much a danger as obsessing. (not that anyone's done that here)

 

Keith Green (one of my favorite Christian singers) wrote a song from the viewpoint of Satan (probably the only song of his I don't like - it creeps me out) and one of the lines that is very striking to me is that Satan has convinced many people he doesn't exist, and that has made it easier for him to operate. The song is important because it views things from Satan's perspective, so to speak, and allows us to be on guard against his conniving strategies. C.S.Lewis also wrote an entire book from the viewpoint of a demon - The Screwtape Letters (also very creepy and unnerving).  Many people attest that the book helped them in many ways - for example, to identify and be on guard against temptations and wrong thinking. 

 

I do (I really do) understand where you are coming from, but I don't think one thread designates an unsafe focus on the wrong thing here... after all, the focus of the Bible is NOT satan or sin or anything like that, but it does speak of those subjects quite often (examples can be seen from the link I posted early in this thread- though there are many more aside from the ones included there) - usually in the form of warnings or descriptions or in expression of their defeat by the hands of Jesus Christ. So as Christians, yes, our MAIN focus should not be on those things, but on the same side, we shouldn't ignore the issues it raises.

 

For instance - if I had not researched and heard stories about spiritual warfare, I would not have heard stories similar to what happened to me. The first apartment I moved into had previously been inhabited by wanted drug dealers who had grown weed in the ventilation and had spotted all the walls with knife marks. (Gratefully, it was all cleaned up before I moved in). Within the first week of living there, I woke up in the middle of the night, and I couldn't move and it was difficult to breath. I was on my back (which was weird because I almost exclusively sleep on my side or stomach), and the sheets were tight around me, as if someone were under my bed, pulling them tight. I couldn't move, and for a few second I panicked, but then I remembered hearing similar stories of this happening to other people and they attributed it to spiritual warfare (demons). So I prayed to be released "in Jesus name", and the pressure immediately released and the ill atmosphere disappeared immediately. I prayed over the apartment and never had another issue in the apartment again.

 

Another for instance - (and this may get me in a lot of trouble.... and a lot of you may disagree with me here... but...)   Are we supposed to hate? 

 

Jesus said that we should love our enemies and pray for those who persecute you. Hatred has a way of destroying the one who harbors it - similar to envy, it poisons the user, not the target. So are we supposed to hate the fallen angels who tempt us so sorely? 

 

Please here me out on this, and of course decide for yourself what you believe. When asked, Should we hate Satan, Lucifer, the Devil, the fallen angel, whatever you want to call him - most people's first reaction (AND mine as well) would be "YES! Of course!" 

 

However, thinking about it made me wonder - When Jesus said love our enemies and pray for those who persecute you, it is true that it is easily arguable that he only meant fellow humans, and that it's DEFINITELY not our job to deal with Satan. However, hatred only tends to destroy the wielder - and it is Not our job to deal with Satan... God created the angels, and although this is conjecture, I do believe that since Satan fell with one-third of the angelic host with him, God created the angels with free will - similar to us humans. That being said, I don't think it's too far of a stretch to wonder if God has a love for his angelic host similar to us humans (no, not identical, but similar?). And DO we actually do any good to hate them?  

 

YES, it is true that God tells us to  1)  RUN away from the devil, to 2) RESIST the devil, and to 3) RUN to Him! But nowhere do I see God saying hate the devil. Run away from him and resist him, YES! Hate sin and evil, YES! And that is where you could definitely argue about sources of evil and the like, however we are also called to love our fellow man, regardless of how evil the person is - love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you. - love the person, hate the sin. 


Another reason I mention this is because many times I see HATRED coming from Christians towards non-believers, I do see a pattern that connects this outward hatred directly to hatred of sin's source - Hatred for Satan and Hatred for anyone who follows him. It's a pretty slippery slope connecting the two, and I have seen it in many places, and it is one of the greatest and most common complaints against Christians we hear.   (I once spoke to a friend about Jesus, and nearly the only reason she rejected Him is because of an experience she had when she went to a church and the members tried to exorcise a demon out of her sister!) 

 

A personal example of hatred that I had would be when I taught in Topeka. I had two children that were family members of the notorious Fred Phelps family (the pastor of the notorious church that protested homosexuals with signs such as "God hates fags" and similar sayings, as well as protesting at military funerals and the like.) Personally, I hated how the Westboro church misrepresented Christianity and spread hatred in such a public way. (If you are unfamiliar with them, they caused a great stir in the media around the turn of the century. and for a while was constantly in the news) However, it would have been wrong for me to harbor that hatred back at them, especially against their children. I did wonder if I would struggle with hatred, having Phelps children in class, but I did not (thank God!) and both of them became dear students to me. The sophomore Phelps student confided in me that he wasn't even allowed to talk about his faith to others, but that he honestly didn't even know what he believed (or what his church believed), and that made me so sad. He was a great student and very bright. The freshman Phelps student had extremely low self esteem because of some learning difficulties she had. She thought she was just slow and stupid - and her family agreed with that assessment -  but because she came in after school to get extra tutoring help, I was able to see some irregularities in her behavior and was able to identify a health issue she had that she and her family didn't know she had that caused her learning difficulty. For her protection, I won't go into details, but she was one of the best student I ever had. If I had harbored hatred or anger towards them because of their families many indiscretions, I would have lost out on teaching and making an impact in the lives of these two great students, and that Freshman would have continued (potentially for the rest of her life) thinking she was simply stupid and slow. 

 

 

I apologize for rambling on for so long, and I hope this doesn't come across as an attack on anyone or an accusation. It was not meant to be. I am pretty passionate about truth... and I do understand the argument, and I agree that our main focus - even our secondary focus, third and fourth... should be on our Lord Jesus Christ! But we shouldn't censor or limit an issue due to it's nature either. Misconceptions can be dangerous tools in the wrong hands... At least, these are some of my thoughts. Sorry again for the long post. 

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The church has embraced the lie of satan.

 

Gen 3:4 - Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.
 

God says satan was a liar from the beginning.

 

Jhn 8:44 - “You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
 

God shares the outcome of both groups in this verse-

 

Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

He says there is only one way to have eternal life.

 

Jhn 14:6 - Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
 

Those who had knowledge of the Holy Scriptures contained in the Tanakh (Old Testament) were well aware of the fate of their adversary, satan. God had made it plain by speaking of his ultimate fate through His prophet, Ezekiel.

 

Ezekiel 28 is a prophetic chapter speaking of and to satan...

 

"You were in Eden, 

the garden of God"
"You were anointed as a guardian cherub, 
for so I ordained you."
"You were blameless in your ways 
from the day you were created 
till wickedness was found in you."
"By your many sins and dishonest trade 
you have desecrated your sanctuaries. 
So I made a fire come out from you, 
and it consumed you
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground 
in the sight of all who were watching."
“You have come to a horrible end 

and will be no more."

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4 hours ago, Trumpeter said:

The church has embraced the lie of satan.

 

I would be very careful about saying the church has embraced the lie of satan. It is true that many denominations and churches have compromised the truth and bought into some of the lies of satan (some more than other) but it is also equally true that God's church, the Bride of Christ - is very much alive and well and has not bought into the lies. As in the days of Elijah, God has protected and reserved a great multitude for his service. The church is very much still alive and there are a great many good, bible-based, churches that have not embraced the lies of satan. 

 

I would also be careful of taking the Bible out of context... Ezekiel 28 is a prophecy against the king of Tyre, and the section you speak of is a lament for the king of Tyre - 

Ezekiel 28: 12-13a “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: “ ‘You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 

You were in Eden, the garden of God..." 

 

Also, the sections you quote are piecemeal... you took the first phrase of verse 13 and left off the rest of the verse, only the first half of verse 14, skipped verse 15 16 and 17 completely, only the first part of verse 18, and only the last part of verse 19

 

Although there are some that give conjecture that Ezekiel 28 may have double meaning in relation to satan, I don't believe it gives any new information that you can't find other places in the Bible the speaks of satan. We know from Genesis that he was in the garden and caused Eve to sin. We know from revelations that he will be destroyed, and that he was a former angel from multiple other places. 

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14 hours ago, Jared Williams said:

I would be very careful about saying the church has embraced the lie of satan.

Thus says The Lord: The light has gone out of the churches of men, and My hand is removed. Therefore what remains, and what spirit dwells there?

 

Excerpt from: 
Woe to the Megachurches of Men

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1 hour ago, Trumpeter said:

Thus says The Lord: The light has gone out of the churches of men, and My hand is removed. Therefore what remains, and what spirit dwells there?

Sorry, but no where in the Bible does it say this. I would also highly warn against adding things to Holy script. 

 

I know for a fact that there are still MANY churches out there that still have the light of God's Holy Spirit, gifted through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, our Lord. It is not a fair assessment to condemn all churches because some, or even many, have fallen in one fashion or another along the wayside. Christianity is about grace, mercy, and forgiveness through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Jesus will never rescind that gift. The only thing that will end His offer of forgiveness to us is when we physically die or the end comes. Even then, its His choice. Romans 10:9 "If you confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in our hearts that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

 

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3 minutes ago, Jared Williams said:

Sorry, but no where in the Bible does it say this. I would also highly warn against adding things to Holy script. 

Amos 3:7- Surely the Lord GOD does nothing,

Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets

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1 Peter 1:3 says, “His divine power has given us everything we need pertaining to life and godliness through our knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and goodness.”

 

The Scriptures we have in the Bible (Genesis to Revelation) has given us everything we need for what God wants of us in this life. 
 

The words “has given” in the above verse are perfect passive tense in the Greek. Perfect tense signifies a completed action with ongoing effects. That means just as God gave his followers everything they needed for life and godliness then, it is enough for us now and even in the future when everyone now on this website are dead and gone. 
 

I find it ironic when the author comes down on “self appointed prophets” of the mega churches 

 

He also prophesied that God will debase all the mega church pastors. 
 

Deut. 18:21-22 says, “You may say to yourselves, ‘How can we know when a message has not been spoken of by the Lord?’ If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true. That is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.”

 

If his prophecy does not come true, then he has not spoken the Word of God. 
 

Finally, if God is against mega churches, then why were 3,000 believers added to the Jerusalem church on the Day of Pentecost?  Wouldn’t Peter and the other apostles have been deposed?

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4 minutes ago, SpecFictionGuy said:

I find it ironic when the author comes down on “self appointed prophets” of the mega churches 

 

He also prophesied that God will debase all the mega church pastors. 

 

What author are you referring to? We belong to a mega church. We have no prophets, self-appointed or otherwise. I would like to know why a church, which has grown because God has blessed it, gets the label of mega church but is not true to God's Word. Where does it say "God will debase all the mega church pastors"?

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59 minutes ago, SpecFictionGuy said:

Finally, if God is against mega churches, then why were 3,000 believers added to the Jerusalem church on the Day of Pentecost?  Wouldn’t Peter and the other apostles have been deposed?

 

Yes, amen!

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