That is a sad sentiment, but there are some Christians who care. All Christians can and should be Christlike in our dealings with others. The dying world is more sad than it is even maddening (and it is that a lot). Pundits aren't always paid, you know? And especially in this day of social media.
General Discussion Stop the Retreat From the Battlefield of the Culture War
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That is a sad sentiment, but there are some Christians who care. All Christians can and should be Christlike in our dealings with others. The dying world is more sad than it is even maddening (and it is that a lot). Pundits aren't always paid, you know? And especially in this day of social media.
For Christian authors as for all things Christian, the largest ones with the most pull in the industry might not actually be Christians in the first place (even in Christian publishing), or have Christ's interests in focus even if they are. There's always going to be a disconnect between reaching an audience for Christ and being published by these big outfits.
Some publishers don't care whether their authors serve Christ, and some even don't care that Mormons are definitively antichristian, regarding the name "Jesus Christ", but having a different "Jesus" than the one God sent to Earth in a human body to heroically accomplish His great saving work.
There is such a thing as the spirit of antichrist and of pseudo-gospels, which we've been warned about. If we cannot see them anywhere, then maybe that's because their extreme pervasiveness is blinding, and it's hard to give up the whole culture in order to be separate in our minds and hearts and to be holy.
Christian publishing has been a bad joke for generations.
Representing Christ against the backdrop of the poison of sin is highly effective. We have to learn to mix the positive and negative, like any accomplished writer of fiction does. A little bad goes a long way to the Christian - we want to hear all the good things that defeats the bad, in detail - but the hardened heart cannot stand the good very much.
Does our audience want, in the first place, to aspire to something other than the pleasure of sin for a season?
Jeff Potts
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Yes. Laying down the Law and "not lifting a finger to help."
Jesus set the example of what you should do. Taking the narrow path is hard. It's even harder when earthly gatekeepers have already ordained that you are beyond redemption.
First, I'm the last guy you're going to meet who is all in to winning friends and influencing people. I have no friends. Everyone here will attest that I don't back down and get al mealy-mouthed when it comes to the things I believe.
That being said, you are making a LOT of assumptions with the things I'm writing.
God made everyone - not just some. Of those people that He made, He placed in them a desire to know Him. There are those who have not heard Him, and there are those who have. Those who have not heard Him, it's our mission to reach them. Because we may be the catalyst that finally brings someone to God. Not the force that brings someone to God, but maybe a trigger. It's vanity to think otherwise.
How, when, where that reclamation happens is utterly out of our control. And don't think for even a minute that you factor into those things.
There is nothing I'm going to say or do that's going to change anyone's heart or mind. That's the prevue of God. However, throwing out Bible passages at people who don't believe? Not a winning strategy. if you want to make believers out of non-believers, you have to speak to them in a language they understand. That's exactly how Jesus went about things.
I don't have to be friends with the raspberry bush to gather raspberries. In fact, the thorns will sting me when I try. Standing next to the bush waiting for the raspberries to jump in the bowl ain't going to yield success either. You need to reach in and pluck the berry from the vine.
When you do harvest, there will be some berries that are not ripe. You've got to wait until they're ready. And some will be diseased and will NEVER be suitable for harvest. All of these factors are out of your control.
You don't have to "make friends" with the world. But if you want to reclaim sinners, you have to go where the sinners are. Not expect them to come to you. Again - Jesus did this too.
There are going to be some people who will not accept salvation. But because one is blinded one day, doesn't mean they won't open their eyes the next. Using a Bible passage to excuse away not trying to reclaim every last soul you can doesn't put you in good standing with the Lord either.
This sounds like more of an excuse than a plan.
Just, exactly, where is the dividing line here? And, I might add, who - exactly - gave you or anyone permission to condemn anyone? Last time I checked, that was God's territory.
You're talking to someone who has spent quite a bit of time feeling the pointy end of condemnation from others. I can tell you - for a fact - that for some, it doesn't work.
There may only a narrow gate for salvation. But it exists in a HUGE amount of landscape. And kicking someone all they way to that gate isn't going to guarantee that they'll pass through. In fact, they may not go through, just to spite you. Or, worse yet, block it off so that no one else can get through either.
Do you think we got to where we are now because people just openly embraced evil? No. Some of them were shoved there by the very same Christians who claimed holiness for themselves. Not all, but some. And all you need to do is listen to these people to hear why they walked away from the Church.
Wisdom, not blind convenience, is how you reach people.
Jeff Potts
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Not if they don't believe in Christ.
I'm not writing exclusively for other Christians. I'm writing for everyone.
It depends on the passages you throw out to them. "How can they believe in Whom they have not heard?". Believing Jesus' death, burial, resurrection, and subsequent witness is necessary for salvation, and along with verbally confessing Master Jesus, is the only necessary thing for salvation.
~~~~~~~~~
What excuse? What dividing line do you mean?
I mean that we are all *in fact* condemned already and will remain so until we are saved by the good news about Christ, which isn't that a man taught loving things. This is the huge divide. Telling them the gospel doesn't mean I'm the one condemning them. It's a warning, not a threat against them. The danger already exists in their lives. We're battlefield medics. We sometimes have to do surgery right there, and sometimes give pain relief, but they all need this biggest thing: a blood transfusion (so to speak; I don't know how strong this metaphor is). The threat is the thing we point at when we tell them about sin, Hell, and judgment: Continual and Conscious Death! Nobody wants that. Sin is the problem to which Jesus is the answer. So, to tell them about Jesus, we must tell them about that. The Sermon on the Mount is not His answer (it highlights the problem, too, by making sin exceedingly sinful; nobody can live it to God's standard! It's not instructions on how to live; get it?). His death, burial, resurrection, and subsequent witness is the answer, so long as we believe those four facts and call on His name for salvation by verbally confessing Master Jesus, because it's with the mouth that confession is made to salvation. And that is a completely different subject than showing someone how kindness and rapport between humanity can be so nice.
When you stand close to the raspberry bush, if you never tell them these very few specific passages, then you aren't even beginning to pluck (perhaps your rubbing the leaves).
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What passage? What excuse?
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I said: "We cannot hold ourselves up as the standard, so condemnations are the necessary background to hold Christ up as glorious and desirable."
We can go anywhere, but what we do when we get there always has to be righteous, even if we go into a den of iniquity. Is there a passage where Jesus went into the bath house and watched naked sports in order to be one of the guys so they'd trust Him. Never!
Jesus led those who were listening to Him into the wilderness. He said that they should come to Him (if they want His life; that's their choice).
Now, on the other hand, being mean to them by screaming "Thou shalt not commit adultery" actually isn't even for them in the first place. They can't keep from sin, because they're bound to it. That's a defining way that makes us different and totally incompatible with them ("Don't be unequally yoked"; "What concord does Christ have with Belial?"). There does have to be discernment with these things.
When we say kind things to each other and the World sees it, then that will be the persuasion I think you mean.
I want to highlight this: Condemnation doesn't mean I tell them how wrong they are to commit this or that particular sin, but that I tell them they are dying because they are a sinner; not what they've done, but what they are. We do evil, because we are evil. All of us. Only by Christ's Father giving us to Him are any of us pulled from the fire of condemnation. That's the message: There's good news! Christ has the ability to save us from our natural state, if we only believe four things and do one thing, according to the Scriptures.
@Jeff Potts
When we say kind things to each other and the World sees it, then that will be the persuasion I think you mean.
I want to highlight this: Condemnation doesn't mean I tell them how wrong they are to commit this or that particular sin, but that I tell them they are dying because they are a sinner; not what they've done, but what they are. We do evil, because we are evil. All of us. Only by Christ's Father giving us to Him are any of us pulled from the fire of condemnation. That's the message: There's good news! Christ has the ability to save us from our natural state, if we only believe four things and do one thing, according to the Scriptures.
@Jeff Potts
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fwiw, that's one way of looking at it, but not the only one.
I'd need Scripture to add to the one I used, where Jesus just said that that's why He used parables. I don't see it in the Scriptures in the quote you gave.
It might be a part of not retreating from the battlefield - how do we talk to them, with metaphor or straightforwardly once they've proven themselves desirous of Christ and not just Christ's goodies, for instance - but perhaps this deserves a new thread.
from gotquestions.org
Our Lord Jesus understood that truth is not sweet music to all ears. Simply put, there are those who have neither interest in nor regard for the deep things of God. So why, then, did He speak in parables? To those with a genuine hunger for God, the parable is both an effective and memorable vehicle for the conveyance of divine truths. Our Lord’s parables contain great volumes of truth in very few words—and His parables, rich in imagery, are not easily forgotten. So, then, the parable is a blessing to those with willing ears. But to those with dull hearts and ears that are slow to hear, the parable is also an instrument of both judgment and mercy.
Jesus did not use parables to just deceive people by having them think He was talking about one thing but was in fact teaching another. He spoke in parables because first, it was a excellent means of teaching spiritual truth for people to consider and think on in a concise manner. Those who were not willing to ponder the parable would not understand or would gloss it over without catching the deeper meaning; those who's hearts were pricked by the Spirit would understand. And then you have those who did get the parable's message and would be even angrier at Jesus - such as the Pharisees who often did get the parables message and understood rightly that it was condemning them.
God has made it quite clear that He does not delight in the death of the wicked but would rather everyone come to Him. Of course we know that not everyone will be saved, but that's not because of God:
Ezekiel 18:23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
Ezekiel 33:11 11 Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’
2 Peter 3: 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
But the whole point of this topic is that we are to reach out to the world in love because God loved them first. I am not God; I have not been imparted with the knowledge of who will be saved and who will not. I can only humbly submit myself to God's command that I treat everyone with love and respect and live my life in a such a way that it glorifies my God in heaven.
And just like you don't go fishing for all fish with the same bait or pole, you don't fish for men all the same way either. People are not all the same and cannot be reached all the exact same way. But the best way by far to shine the light for Christ is NOT by holding up our own self righteousness or walking around with the Bible as a hammer, beating people over the head with Scripture. In fact, I have seen with my own eyes having been raised in a fundamental, evangelical, southern style church that that sort of "witness" actually spurns people away from God; it does not draw them in. And this is especially true for the gaming community and the nerd pop culture community; they have been vilified and reviled and called Satanists for decades now. Or look how many of the hippy movement in the 60's were turned away because of how the church treated them? that is the whole point of the movie that recently came out the Jesus Revolution. The church was by far holding itself up in self righteousness, condemning the lost souls and expecting them to come to the church instead of meeting those people where they were, accepting them and showing them the love of Christ so they could understand they were lost sinners desperately needing a Savior.
The people who have the greatest, most effective witness I have ever seen are the ones who are gentle in spirit, humble, merciful, gracious, kind, considerate, respectful, and loving to everyone around them, no matter if they are great or small, old or young, righteous or a sinner of sinners. Those are the ones that everyone in the community knows and who commands the most respect. They don't have to utter a word of condemnation to anyone; their life speaks volumes, but what's more, because of their life, they are lights for Christ in the dark community, and even those who are outside the church know if they have trouble, if they have need, they can go to these individuals and get help. And those are the ones who with their lives have reached more people than any fire and brimstone Bible thumping evangelist from the pulpit.
We are to remember as well that we may not be the one to lead a person to Christ. It may take many different occasions in many different ways before someone is finally able to accept Christ as their Savior. So the gentleman who helped them fix a tire in the rain with a smile and with no other desire than to help them, who doesn't give them a sermon but just meets their need? But the lost person sees the cross hanging from the rearview mirror? That may well plant the seed and that act of mercy will stick in that person's mind without the Christian having to say a single word. Later, that person may have other experiences with good Christians that leave trails in his heart, all watering that little seed, until finally, the lost man will be ready to hear the message and God will send him someone to speak the truth to him because the lost man's heart has been tilled and fertilized and made ready to hear the message, something that did not, in fact, require every person along the way to speak to him in condemnation to do.
Many evangelical Christians love Jude 23, but completely ignore Jude 22:
22 And have mercy on some, who are doubting; 23 save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.
There are some who are saved by bold preaching, but not all will respond. There are others who will be saved because of the example of life shown to them and the mercies given to them by those who are truly seeking to live like Christ and who will treat them with love and respect, not as filth. We are called to be the good Samaritans, not the self righteous priests and scribes. We treat all people with love and give them something to wonder at, to ponder, and let God work in that person's life. We go to these cons and we may well not have the opportunity to say a single word to those people there, but if we are living our lives as authentic Christians, Christ will shine to them through us and leave them to wondering. Though the books we sell may not preach a salvation sermon in them, but the treatment of Christianity and the Scripture within the story may well plant a seed that God will water in other ways. And if, during the course of the conversation, the opportunity arises to mention Christ, we of course will take it, but even if we don't, we trust that, if we are dedicating our work to God, that He can and will use our presence there to sow seeds that He will use in the future to bring many to Him. It's God's work; not ours.
1 Corinthians 3 - 5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.
1 Corinthians 9 - 19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. 23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
Why did Jesus teach in parables? | GotQuestions.org
Why did Jesus teach in parables? Why did Jesus often speak using parables instead of teaching more clearly?
www.gotquestions.org
Our Lord Jesus understood that truth is not sweet music to all ears. Simply put, there are those who have neither interest in nor regard for the deep things of God. So why, then, did He speak in parables? To those with a genuine hunger for God, the parable is both an effective and memorable vehicle for the conveyance of divine truths. Our Lord’s parables contain great volumes of truth in very few words—and His parables, rich in imagery, are not easily forgotten. So, then, the parable is a blessing to those with willing ears. But to those with dull hearts and ears that are slow to hear, the parable is also an instrument of both judgment and mercy.
Jesus did not use parables to just deceive people by having them think He was talking about one thing but was in fact teaching another. He spoke in parables because first, it was a excellent means of teaching spiritual truth for people to consider and think on in a concise manner. Those who were not willing to ponder the parable would not understand or would gloss it over without catching the deeper meaning; those who's hearts were pricked by the Spirit would understand. And then you have those who did get the parable's message and would be even angrier at Jesus - such as the Pharisees who often did get the parables message and understood rightly that it was condemning them.
God has made it quite clear that He does not delight in the death of the wicked but would rather everyone come to Him. Of course we know that not everyone will be saved, but that's not because of God:
Ezekiel 18:23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
Ezekiel 33:11 11 Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’
2 Peter 3: 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
But the whole point of this topic is that we are to reach out to the world in love because God loved them first. I am not God; I have not been imparted with the knowledge of who will be saved and who will not. I can only humbly submit myself to God's command that I treat everyone with love and respect and live my life in a such a way that it glorifies my God in heaven.
And just like you don't go fishing for all fish with the same bait or pole, you don't fish for men all the same way either. People are not all the same and cannot be reached all the exact same way. But the best way by far to shine the light for Christ is NOT by holding up our own self righteousness or walking around with the Bible as a hammer, beating people over the head with Scripture. In fact, I have seen with my own eyes having been raised in a fundamental, evangelical, southern style church that that sort of "witness" actually spurns people away from God; it does not draw them in. And this is especially true for the gaming community and the nerd pop culture community; they have been vilified and reviled and called Satanists for decades now. Or look how many of the hippy movement in the 60's were turned away because of how the church treated them? that is the whole point of the movie that recently came out the Jesus Revolution. The church was by far holding itself up in self righteousness, condemning the lost souls and expecting them to come to the church instead of meeting those people where they were, accepting them and showing them the love of Christ so they could understand they were lost sinners desperately needing a Savior.
The people who have the greatest, most effective witness I have ever seen are the ones who are gentle in spirit, humble, merciful, gracious, kind, considerate, respectful, and loving to everyone around them, no matter if they are great or small, old or young, righteous or a sinner of sinners. Those are the ones that everyone in the community knows and who commands the most respect. They don't have to utter a word of condemnation to anyone; their life speaks volumes, but what's more, because of their life, they are lights for Christ in the dark community, and even those who are outside the church know if they have trouble, if they have need, they can go to these individuals and get help. And those are the ones who with their lives have reached more people than any fire and brimstone Bible thumping evangelist from the pulpit.
We are to remember as well that we may not be the one to lead a person to Christ. It may take many different occasions in many different ways before someone is finally able to accept Christ as their Savior. So the gentleman who helped them fix a tire in the rain with a smile and with no other desire than to help them, who doesn't give them a sermon but just meets their need? But the lost person sees the cross hanging from the rearview mirror? That may well plant the seed and that act of mercy will stick in that person's mind without the Christian having to say a single word. Later, that person may have other experiences with good Christians that leave trails in his heart, all watering that little seed, until finally, the lost man will be ready to hear the message and God will send him someone to speak the truth to him because the lost man's heart has been tilled and fertilized and made ready to hear the message, something that did not, in fact, require every person along the way to speak to him in condemnation to do.
Many evangelical Christians love Jude 23, but completely ignore Jude 22:
22 And have mercy on some, who are doubting; 23 save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.
There are some who are saved by bold preaching, but not all will respond. There are others who will be saved because of the example of life shown to them and the mercies given to them by those who are truly seeking to live like Christ and who will treat them with love and respect, not as filth. We are called to be the good Samaritans, not the self righteous priests and scribes. We treat all people with love and give them something to wonder at, to ponder, and let God work in that person's life. We go to these cons and we may well not have the opportunity to say a single word to those people there, but if we are living our lives as authentic Christians, Christ will shine to them through us and leave them to wondering. Though the books we sell may not preach a salvation sermon in them, but the treatment of Christianity and the Scripture within the story may well plant a seed that God will water in other ways. And if, during the course of the conversation, the opportunity arises to mention Christ, we of course will take it, but even if we don't, we trust that, if we are dedicating our work to God, that He can and will use our presence there to sow seeds that He will use in the future to bring many to Him. It's God's work; not ours.
1 Corinthians 3 - 5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.
1 Corinthians 9 - 19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. 23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
Is bold preaching, which you allow, the opposite of giving an example of a merciful, Christ-like, loving life? Do you think that bold preaching is the same thing as treating someone like filth, as you say?
God tells us we are filthy, we are already condemned, and we must have Christ to be clean. Most won't want to be clean, even though they know this and are given examples of merciful love, but the gospel speaks clearly to those who are being saved, and we need the gospel to be saved. The gospel doesn't show false respect to the disreputable - that's perversion and mere psychological manipulation - the gospel is the small set of facts about why and how to be saved. Those who want to will respond to it, and those who don't, won't, even though you spend your lifetime using psychological manipulation to persuade them.
High regard for gregarious community leaders is not Christianity, though it often is made to seem like it is.
This is the answer to a lot of the debating on this thread, and I think we're talking at cross purposes when bold preaching is taken to be against gentleness. We've seen many examples in denominations of preaching which is both too nasty and too accommodating, but this passage in Jude sums it up; my point is not about style, because *both* are needed. I'm saying that the *actual* gospel is *never, ever, ever - as a matter of policy, because it's regarded as mean, self-righteous, and unnecessary when a false pseudo-love-ism takes it's place - ever told to them what they *must* believe, according to the Scriptures and not according to you or me, and *must* do to be saved (according to God's Word).. ever! The gospel that Paul first learned and then preached (he didn't make it up, either), is replaced by psychological manipulation and even by sincere love. But is it really love when the facts of how to be saved are withheld ("Someone else will plant the seed, so long as it doesn't expose people to the harsh reality of the death that all of our sin produces in each one of us) or obscured (by a pseudo-gospel of love-ism or the so-called Social Gospel) or twisted ("Take Jesus into your heart"; that's the goal, but it does not proclaim God's method of how to receive Him).
Telling them how to be saved, not gentleness or harshness, is the question and the problem, along with becoming like the World to appease them into liking you, because you have a half-formed idea that it will lead them to salvation without the preaching of the gospel (or by someone else preaching what you cannot stand but tolerate in a vague way because you're not the giver of salvation doctrine, just the soil masseuse?).
This question about the purpose of parables is a microcosm of this problem; the Bible just clearly states the answer as a declarative fact, and you answered with someone's philosophy about it instead of another verse that could at least be added to that biblical answer in order to temper, change, or expand the overall meaning (taking the whole counsel of God - I'd want to hear any Scripture that expands what I already know from Scripture).
A different but related question: Does speaking against your ideas here seem like hatred? Reproving Christians by Scripture is love, and the Scripture simply declares both the methods, gentle and harsh, like Jude says, and the substance, which is often replaced by a twisted form of the method, which is not loving to God first in being His hands and feet on the Earth concerning His great loving work for us. How is milquetoast helpfully loving when it doesn't achieve the goal? Do you feel, right now, pressure against being scolded, along with an attitude of despite and a monologue that it can't and won't work with you or anyone? But it's not for my sake that I've said it, it's for yours and others like you, who are being subverted and subverting others by replacing God's Good News with your psychological practices - even they aren't necessarily evil, but they *replace* it altogether - and I say it for loving duty to God's Word and to His great salvation, which love, gentleness, and the other fruit of the Holy Spirit requires first.
Jeff Potts
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- Apr 5, 2019
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Your words:
That's an excuse. No matter how you slice that statement, it says that you've accepted that you'll never be like Christ (even though you're supposed to try to be like Christ), so it's OK to go around condemning others...or something.
Ther passages you cited:
I think I can say, with a certain amount of confidence, that the vast majority of us here have read the Bible and accept we're all fallen creatures. Informing us through Scripture that we're fallen is sort of redundant.
That being said, the issue was reaching people. Wanting to save people, but rejecting the world in which they live is a literal contradiction. If you want to bring back the "lost sheep," you sometimes have to go and get them. That means going out into that bad, evil world, and going places you may not want to go. Because, most times, lost sheep don't come back to you on their own. Otherwise, they're not exactly lost.
Saying that people are blinded by the world, and using that as an excuse for condemning them isn't exactly helpful. And, as I pointed out already, sometimes they get shoved into the "loving arms of the world" by Christians themselves. And boy, do I have examples. Why, not too long ago, I heard one guy talking about how "Southern Christian Church Ladies," and their gossiping, were probably more responsible for people walking away from the church than the devil himself.
And, not too long ago, I used to play an online game where I met a wiccan who cited her cold and rigid father (strict Catholic and a military guy) as a reason why she went the way she went. The woman hated Christians and Christianity, despite the fact that she KNEW I was a believing Christian.
Now, I'm not going to sit here and condemn either Catholics or Southern Church Ladies. Nor am I going to condemn the specific people involved for their part in creating lost sheep. I don't know any of these people mentioned directly. Likewise, it's not my place to throw out condemnations for whatever bad things people have done. People make mistakes - ALL people. People make up excuses for their bad behavior. The world is a messy place. All you can do is what you perceive to be the right thing ,at any given moment.
But using Bible passages to write people off? Not cool.
As for the wiccan, I lost track of her (people move on from games). She wasn't in the best shape, phycially, beset with all sorts of physical problems. And you could see where she had a few brief moments where she may have doubted her life choices. After a while, she apologized for some of the things she said to me, and even praised me for raising decent sons and being a strong father - something her kids never had (and clearly she lamented this). The reality is, knowing what I knew about her, if I had said ANYTHING to try and pull her back, she'd run further in the opposite direction - citing Bible passages would've been literally useless. Just being a tolerant, decent, and unapologetic in my faith undoubtedly planted a seed. You could sort of see it. In retrospect, that was probably the best and only thing I might have been able to do for her given her sentiments and feelings.
In her case, God would have to do the rest. Because, in the end, I have no power to change anyone.
Whether that seed took root and grew, or died in stony ground (her heart) was entirely her decision.
Sometimes people will throw themselves on a bonfire, just because they fear freezing to death more. In most of these cases, hey don't bother to look around and wonder why there's no snow on the ground. People are what they are, and none of us are going to fundamentally change them.
So, if that doesn't clarify my positions here, and why I've said what I said, I don't know what will. I will no longer continue posting on this tread for obvious reasons.
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I'll reword my statement so you know it's not expressing any excuse to be mean:
We cannot hold ourselves up as the standard, because our fallen human nature is already condemned and isn't useful to be the standard of life, so telling people that we are all condemned is the necessary background to get to the next step where Christ is held up as the glorious and desirable standard. In other words, our love-kindness is just what the condemned world also attempts to express, but it all falls short without knowledge of our sin and knowledge that we need the Savior by way of His own Gospel and not our loving-kindness, because even good fruit is worthless without knowledge of Christ's salvation doctrine.
Consider something else. Being driven away from Christ because of this or that attitude by His followers is just an excuse. We aren't brought toward Christ by soulish methods, nor are we driven away except by spiritual reasons. Soulish things have to do with perceptions and emotions and thoughts and willfullness. Spiritual things have to do with belief.
The gospel can be told in less than a minute; it's just a factual statement. How is that comparable with being spurned by sinful representations of Christ in the mouths of His representatives? I'm not promoting being mean, but I'm saying our sin-predicament is inherently ugly, and that'll come out when honestly addressing it.
I'm not enacting the condemnation by reporting on it. The sin is what's condemning us. Even God sending fallen humanity to Hell is just Him placing people in an environment equal to their nature; that goes for fallen humans and fallen angels alike. Christ's great saving work is loving and telling people about it is also loving.
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I should ask the same question of you; you seem to think that those who have different views from yours must in fact be wrong and in need of correction, or as you say, reproof, because, of course, your understanding of Scripture is the correct one, even though our views are in fact based on Scripture, as we have clearly shown you time and time again.
Never have I said or has ever indicated that the gospel was to give way to psychological practices. You yourself seem to think, however, that any other approach to the world that is not always a gospel presentation first and foremost, immediately going "you are a sinner in need of Savior and the Bible says you are going to hell if you do not repent and believe on Jesus Christ!" is a sin on the part of the Christian and a subversion of the gospel. Furthermore, you also have given the impression that any act of kindness to a sinner or friendliness is "being in league with the devil" and a lie to them.
It is not that your speaking against my ideas seem like hatred; it does come across as arrogance, especially when you seem to think you have the authority to "reprove me by Scripture in Christian love." Frankly, I see no love here in your comments. It is one thing when you see a Christian brother or sister in obvious sin; reproof is clearly required by Scripture. However, condemning them for having a different approach to reaching the lost than you is in fact itself quite condemned in Scripture. Paul often clearly rebuked those who demanded that their brethren all worship as they did, eat as they did, drink as they did, observe customs and holy days as they did.
I get that is your view of sanctification and remaining unsullied by the world. I happen to greatly disagree. And no, I do not at all feel any pressure against being scolded. The only thing I feel is pity for you and the blindness of your own views and the clearly unloving attitude you are displaying towards both your brethren in Christ in calling them to repent for seeking to reach the lost in a manner you think is inappropriate based on your views of Scripture. Further, I also pity those who come in contact with you as you seem to clearly believe that no respect or mercy is to be shown to any sinner who is not seeking salvation, as you have consistently stated that such kindness to sinners is "false respect to the disreputable" and "perversion and mere psychological manipulation."
As it stands, no, sir, I do not feel any kind of need to repent for having the views I do of Scripture, nor do I have any leading of the Holy Spirit to do. As it stands, I can guarantee to you that nothing you have said here or elsewhere has made me have any thoughts of such need to repent or that I had need of "gentle reproof". As it is also clear that you yourself also do not see that you have any need of reproof yourself, despite several people on this forum trying to get you to understand their views, and that such views are not, as you call them, psychological pandering but are, in fact, views held by sincere Christians and firmly grounded in Scripture, in this case it is obvious that we are at cross purposes here.
As such, I suggest, good sir, that you continue reaching the lost in your own manner, and I will continue to reach the lost in my own, and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ can get the increase in both ways as He sees fit.
I believe you are incorrect in your thinking; you believe I am incorrect in mine. No amount of arguing or, as you call it, "reproving" is going to persuade either of us to change our views. Therefore, I shall at this point agree to disagree with you and wish you a blessed day and with a final selection of Scripture:
"Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand."
Romans 14: 10-13 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
11For it is written,
“AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD.”
12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this—not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way. 14I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
and finally, as I fully expect you shall desire to have the last word, as with Jeff Potts above, I will not respond to you again and will be blocking your posts from henceforth. We will never come to agreement or an understanding as you are obviously firm in your views and I in mine and neither of us are going to convince the other of anything else. Therefore there is nothing to be gained from continuing the debate other than frustration which is certainly not of Christ nor edifies nor uplifts each other.
M. D. Boncher
Well-known member
- Dec 9, 2021
- 584
- 648
- Thread starter
- #76
After reading repeated posts packed full of criticism, derision and attacks on other members of this forum by you when trying to discuss positive ways in which to reach the lost, I respectfully ask you to stay out of this thread and leave it to those who wish to discuss such things.
Because of your stated disability that you've brandished as an aegis against criticism, I'm throwing you on my ignore list because I want you to be aware I am intentionally shunning everything you have to say for I have not seen a single post you've typed in any thread being beneficial to anything but your own ego. You've no one to blame for driving me (and probably several others) away from you, and your message, but yourself. This is not a rejection of Jesus, but you and your methods. I don't care why, I do not need this level of aggravation in my life and am not called to take it. My walk with God is unchanged by your words.
No one will accept pearls of wisdom when you throw them like a fastball at their face.
Be grateful the moderators have not taken action against you because of their long-suffering generosity and reconsider how you behave here.
Once the issue is resolved, I do hope you continue to share ideas and thoughts on the subject here, as I see you have a spirit and ideas right for this discussion.
I completely understand this, @Jeff Potts ! I grew up in that type of Church but I was very sheltered from the community and had no idea the reputation my home church had until I left that church. Christians have done more to hamper the cause of Christ than any act of persecution brought on by Satan. Even now, how many people will ask "what about the Crusades" and "What about the inquisition"? It can be very difficult to get people to understand things done in the name of Christ are not always, in fact, sanctioned by Christ, and that just because a person claims to be a Christian doesn't make them one. Most of the time, the first example of Christ that a person sees is the life of the convert claiming to be a Christian; that is the first taste of the gospel they get and they have nothing to compare against to judge the authenticity of that Christian. So if they see a Christian being hateful or cruel or self righteous or holier than thou, the lost person is going to think that is what Christianity teaches and will judge Christ based on what the follower of Christ does. They do not have a frame of reference to go by to understand that Jesus was not that way at all; they will judge Christ by the actions of his disciples.
I can only pray that the Lord gives me wisdom in my attitudes and actions around the lost. I can say the entire time I was at the conference surrounded by the lost, Christ's words "be wise as serpents and harmless as doves" was a mantra repeated in my heart, and I sought that the Holy Spirit would guide my steps and my mouth in dealing with them so that I would not be a stumbling block to him. And when I play RPG games with those who are not saved, I pray that the Holy Spirit will guide my actions so as to draw those people to Him and that He will guide my mouth so that I say the right thing when the opportunity arises.
I agree that you did all you could with the wiccan woman, and I to hope and pray that your witness to her planted a seed in her heart.
Thank you very much for your insight! I do pray that your books do reach people who might have been unreachable otherwise!
- Sep 27, 2005
- 3,942
- 2,123
- Moderator
- #78
(The Moderators are watching. We're working on the premise that we all understand and operate under John 13:34-35: "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." If there's an instance where someone isn't demonstrating love, we will intervene. Until then, we're all adults here, and members of the universal Body of Christ, and assume that we can find ways to disagree without being disagreeable.)
The problem isn't that we go into evil places to spread the Word. The problem is that befriending the World isn't the Word. It's not a style to spread the Word, either, when it's never accompanied by salvation doctrine. It seems to me like many Christians despise salvation doctrine. Even though Christians have yelled inappropriately from pulpits, that doesn't mean that the classic message of salvation, including the part about sin, is evil!
Should I retreat from this thread? If you can't deal with me who, regardless of other problems, obviously promotes Christ's Gospel, then how can you deal with the enemies of God and His Christ? We wrestle sometimes, but that's not bad. Having weakened consciences is a difficult matter for any of us, though. Engage rightly, both at home and away. God helps us, especially when we ask Him. We're all just little ones. Remember the joy of the Master!
Should I retreat from this thread? If you can't deal with me who, regardless of other problems, obviously promotes Christ's Gospel, then how can you deal with the enemies of God and His Christ? We wrestle sometimes, but that's not bad. Having weakened consciences is a difficult matter for any of us, though. Engage rightly, both at home and away. God helps us, especially when we ask Him. We're all just little ones. Remember the joy of the Master!
- Sep 27, 2005
- 3,942
- 2,123
- Moderator
- #80
This is accurate. It's also not particularly nice.
We've made it clear this space is meant to be a safe space where Christians who are (or want to be) writers can come and find solace, sanctuary from a world in which we are aliens, strangers passing through. Life is hard and people hate Christians because they hate Christ, and there is value in having a safe space to come together as Christians where we can relax for a minute and not have to struggle with the person we're talking to.
We've said it before and I'm saying it again now–there are lots of places where one can go and debate theology. This isn't that place.
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