Normalizing Sin

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Paul but not THE

Well-known member
Feb 12, 2021
I was going to blow it off, or post it later, but I figured it was a fairly important topic.  I was also going to post a comment to an extant post, but I didn't want to bring that one back to the top of the list.

A common complaint I hear is "Why do Christians attack the LGBTQ... community so much?  Sin is sin, isn't it?"  Yes, BUT, thieves, murderers, even gossips and gluttons aren't trying to make us think those practices are good and right.  Another is, "Why fight Muslims so hard?  Aren't Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons and Buddhists and... just as bad?"  Well, all those others aren't trying to kill us if we don't convert.  Then there's how porn and infidelity is such a common issue, and not to beat one's self up over it --just chill, everybody does it; sin's not so bad.  So much more.

My son, one day years ago, was cussing up a storm, and he wasn't even angry (not that anger justifies expletives).  I called him on it and he suggested, 'I can't help it.  That's just the way we talk now.  It's normal and natural.'  I countered with 'no, it's not 'just the way you talk'!  You can turn it off when you're talking with your grandparents.  You can turn it off when you're talking with a preacher.  You can turn it off when you're talking with your teachers --Don't try to tell me it's just natural.'  I remember (or partially remember) a TV network commercial where the '40s style private eye is standing (in black and white) under the streetlight at night in the rain, and he squints/snarls at the camera saying something like, "Turner Classics --where a man doesn't have to cuss to be tough."  I want to find that commercial someday on-line (yeah, even if it was Bill Cosby).

There's so much more.  As Christians, we're called to be different.  We're NOT to blend in with the World --Look at the Old testament!  God's chosen people embrace God, then blend with the locals, normalize sin, get punished, embrace God, blend, normalize, get punished, embrace...  When Paul said he becomes all things to win people, he didn't mean he becomes a prostitute to win the immoral, or a drunk to win alcoholics.  We're different from the World, and our writing should show we're different.  Our writing should reflect our values --'Yabbut, that's just the way kids of that culture talk...'  NO, when you write it, it's not a slip.  It's deliberate.

If you're Christian, be different from the world.  We're called to a different standard from worldliness.



Well-known member
Mar 1, 2019
You’ve made some fine points, @Paul but not THEand I agree with pretty much all of them...

However, I don’t believe we, or anyone, ought to be “fighting” Muslims, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Buddhists, or people of any other faith...

There’s already so much misunderstanding and ground lost between Muslims and Christians particularly (can’t speak from experience on the others) that “fighting” on any level is the last thing we need. Instead, let’s build peaceful, respectful relationships, and pray...



Well-known member
Jul 15, 2016
A thought provoking post, Paul.  But I have to believe Jesus in Matthew 7:3-5 when he said,  

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."

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Well-known member
May 29, 2018
In my reading sometime ago, I ran across the thought that Christians were to be COUNTERCULTURAL. The more I hear news commentators and even our new President speak, I hear more expletives than I want to hear.  I even heard a taped phone conversation between our former first lady and her social secretary (it think that was her title.) The former first lady used a form of the word that no one likes to hear to describe Christmas decorations. 

As Christians, have we been given permission by our LORD to use foul and unbecoming language to gain someone else's attention?


Paul but not THE

Well-known member
Feb 12, 2021
I guess my point is being much missed.  We're normalizing too much sin (our own, included) and being numbed to right and wrong.  I am in no way trying to point accusing fingers at others and not at myself.  We're called to be different, and we should be seen by the mainstreamers as 'not of this world'.  Yes, we got planks in our eyes, but we surely can't become perfect before we're allowed to be discerning.

ALL the Bible is God's Word, not just the red letters.  Ezekiel 9:4-7 says we better stay alert to wrongs and grumble about them.  There's a fine line between "discerning" and "judging."  It often depends on which end of the accusing finger you're standing on.   I like the courtroom analogy --We, the jury, MUST determine guilt (discern right from wrong), but God, the Judge, casts sentence.



Mar 22, 2021
Personally, I think until we Christians practice what the GUY we claim to follow preaches, we'll just add to the spite and misery of the world. A good part of Muslin and other hatreds of various kinds by various people, is due to a gross failure to practice true Christianity. Christian have historically used or rather twisted Jesus' teachings into excuses to vilify, demonize, exploit, oppress, and suppress other cultures. What happens in the adage that's all too true--familiairity breeds contempt. Also, to remember before pointing the finger at others, three fingers on that hand point to ourselves.



Disagree. As a queer Christian, I have done my research, and God makes no mistakes. I was born this way. 
also nice to bring up that even if the Leviticus phrase was correct (which it is not) there are over 100 verses on love.



Disagree. As a queer Christian, I have done my research, and God makes no mistakes. I was born this way. 
also nice to bring up that even if the Leviticus phrase was correct (which it is not) there are over 100 verses on love.
I was born a gossip. Does that mean I'm expected to gossip about you? I was born foolish. Should I keep doing inappropriate things?  I was born with an ego the size of Russia. Does that mean I am the most important person in the universe? 

I'm using Romans 1 for the list of sins, and please read it, because where you are is when God gives you over to sin. Gracefully, he can save you from it too. Repent.

Love is in the Bible 552 times. (Look them up, because not all of them are pointing to God.)

Wrath is 212 times. Which one do you want to face at death?

Here's where there is no excuse in thinking you can stay sinful because "I was born this way." (And for the record, no one is born with a sexual desire. That comes along later -- either forcefully or in puberty. That is a lie pushed on you by people who do want same-sex as predominant.)

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 
Rom 1:19  For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 
Rom 1:20  For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 
Rom 1:21  For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 
Rom 1:22  Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 
Rom 1:23  and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. 
Rom 1:24  Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 
Rom 1:25  because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. 
Rom 1:26  For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 
Rom 1:27  and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. 
Rom 1:28  And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 
Rom 1:29  They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 
Rom 1:30  slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 
Rom 1:31  foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 
Rom 1:32  Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. 



Staff member
Sep 7, 2017
@kiana5 - You're right, God makes no mistakes. 🙂 You're entitled to your opinion, but we believe it firmly states in God's word that participating in homosexual behavior is a sinful act. The temptation itself is not a sin — we all struggle with temptation in some aspect of our lives — but choosing to indulge in the behavior is sin, according to traditional Biblical teachings. It's not forced on you, but rather actions you choose to participate in.

God loves you and wants the very best for you. Scripture outlines the ideal pattern as one man and one woman in an exclusive, loving, married relationship.

I know popular culture teaches that "anything goes," but we ask you to respect that we hold a traditional view of the Bible and that isn't open to debate. We wish you the very best and will hold you in our prayers as family in Christ.

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Well-known member
May 28, 2019
There’s already so much misunderstanding and ground lost between Muslims and Christians particularly (can’t speak from experience on the others) that “fighting” on any level is the last thing we need. Instead, let’s build peaceful, respectful relationships, and pray...

Agreed. As someone living in an area of a mixed christian-muslim community, social cohesion and religious tolerance is vital if we are to develop greater understand and the ability to live alongside each other peacefully.

In the Church of England there is presently a on-going discussion about same-sex marriages in church. The latest step is to encourage church members to participate in a 5-session course which explores  by focusing on what we understand by identity, grace and relationships with close attention being paid to scripture interpretation and the pastoral implications for those who agree and disagree with same sex marriage.

This seems to me to be focusing on what really matters rather than getting bogged down in doctrinal arguments. It is hard route to go down because, whereas with the for and against arguments where you can fit scripture to your cause, the scripture around identity, grace and relationships reminds us that we are all made in God's image and called to witness the gospel through demonstrating His grace - that means in all our relationships individuals and as society.

I know not everyone will see it this way but I offer it up as point of view.

PS - in many respect's I would say the CofE has already voted with its feet as it does ordains LGB and transgender priests - abid the L&G  priests would say they are celibate (as single heterosexuals are called to be). To my mind if the church is doing this, then the precedent to marry people from these groups is there because they already accept their sexual preference/lifestyle.


William D'Andrea

Well-known member
Mar 6, 2017
     I live on Long Island, in the New York Metropolitan Area; which has one of the World's largest Jewish populations, outside of Israel.  Back in the early 1970's I attended a weekly Teenage Bible Study at my Church, which took place Sunday mornings after Worship. 

     I remember that a Jewish girl who attended high school with some of them, also sat in on the study a few times.  She seemed to be getting a lot out of it. Then she told them all, that her parents said that they didn't want her attending any more of these studies.

    This was a very uncomfortable moment for everyone there.

     All the kids could tell her was, "The Bible does say, 'You shall honor your father and your mother.'" and "That's a Commandment."

    After that she didn't show up at any more of those Bible studies.

    I wonder if she told her parents about what she was told?  If she did, then they might have understood that what we Christians have is deserving of respect.


Jeff Potts

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2019
Well, when Jesus was questioned on marriage and divorce, He cited Genesis chapter-and-verse.

When people say that Jesus never said anything about gay marriage, my response is: He did.  And he cited a man and a woman, exclusively.

Almost as if He knew what was coming...

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