Book Publishers

[lajoyc]

I am really confused by my internet research. I'm finding that I have to pay to get my book published and then I have to pay if I want copies of the book. How is this different from self-publishing?

[TanyaSue]

That is the very definition of self-publishing. :)

With traditional publishing, you sell a proposal to an editor/publishing house. They pay YOU for your book up front. If it sells well, you'll also get royalties -- additional payment! The advice I've heard over and over: Be wary of anyone asking for money up front.

Do you have a copy of the Market Guide? It provides a lot of information on the various reputable publishing houses and the differences between the two. I would also recommend reading some basic books on getting published. They're everywhere. Currently I'm reading The Shortest Distance Between You and a Published Book. The author is very clear about the process of getting published, what to know and what to avoid. Another easy and informative read: How to Get Your Book Published.

[lajoyc]

Thanks Tanyasue. I will have to check those out. This is starting to become a frustrating process.

[DrRita]

lajoyc,

There are many companies who prey upon new writers with promises to get their work in print and paint glorious visions of selling your book and keeping all the profits for yourself. However, there is a ton of things they don't tell you. Do a thorough research of self publishing before you even consider it it's right for you.

I know there are hundreds of thousands of self published authors out there who have boxes of books in their garage. Mainline bookstores will not carry your book if it's not available through a publisher or distributor they order from. Some of the big chains will allow you to sign books and have some for sale (after you've struck a deal with them) but won't put it on their shelves. Amazon lets you put it on their site for sale but without advertising and promotion, who's going to know it's there?

These are just a couple of the problems and the only ones who make the money are the ones who printed it for you.

That's not to say self publishing isn't for you . . . there are times when it is a good thing, but your book and platform should dictate that, not lures of vanity publishers.

Go to a writer's conference!! I can't stress that enough. You will get plenty of info not only on writing, but on publishing both vanity and traditional and you will also get the opportunity to TALK directly to aquisition editors where you can ask them questions. It will be more than worth the money!

[TanyaSue]

lajoyc - I know what you're saying! I'm new to this too, and lately I have been feeling nothing but behind. I'm play catch-up just to figure out what in the world I am doing. Try not to get frustrated. Easier said than done I know! But, like you, I know God wants me doing this. We just need to be diligent in research so that we can effectively do what God wants us to do; to write what He wants us to write. This is a great place to learn and be encouraged. The only other thing I can say is read everything you can find and pray without ceasing. God will show you what you need to know and where you need to go.

[lajoyc]

Thanks. I'm not going to give up. I know that this is what I'm suppose to be doing. I love to write and I would still do it even if I didn't get paid for it. But it would be great if I could get paid to do what I love to do.

[DrRita]

Hello? Is anyone listening????

[wgjones3]

I am really confused by my internet research. I'm finding that I have to pay to get my book published and then I have to pay if I want copies of the book. How is this different from self-publishing?

That's not how traditional publishing works at all. Money flows to the author, not away from.

[lfutral]

A good source of info that no one has mentioned is the Christian Writers Market Guide. They even have a website [URL="http://www.stuartmarket.com"/URL] not sure if I did that right but you get the gist. I have the 2005 version of the book and the website in my favorites.

This book and site are a must for any Christian writer IMO.

[David Meigs]

The POD publishers (print on demand) have invaded the www with their aggressive advertising. They love to trot out testimonies of writers who actually got decent sales, and then sign with a traditional publisher.

What they don’t tell you is that the odds of that happening are less than winning the Lotto. One acquisitions editor told me that they would never even look at a self-published book. That was MY wake up call.

As DrRita said, there are times when self publishing makes good sense, but unless you are a celebrity or have a niche book, it’s best to go the traditional route. At least give it a try!

I know that these words might hurt the feelings of my friends here that have self-published. Please know that this is not my intent. I simply don’t want to see anyone else make the same mistake I made. Albeit short lived, the lesson I learned was expensive, embarrassing and humbling. My only consolation is that I didn’t know any better at the time.

[whitehawke]

A few years back, I tried the POD way. Oh boy, what a mistake. They told me my book was wonderful, better than other books they'd seen. I swallowed it, paid $500. up front and then gasp in horror at what they did to my book. They changed what I wrote and their grammar was shocking.

They broke sentences in half and pushed them back together in fragments. They gave me 6 copies of the masterpiece and told me to have it proofread. No one would, because it had been strangled so bad. I had the POD guy on about it and he refused to undo the damage he'd done.

[tlm]

Do you have a copy of the Market Guide? It provides a lot of information on the various reputable publishing houses and the differences between the two.

Please let me add a warning. Just because a publisher appears in The Writers Market Guide or Sally Stuart's Christian Writer's Market Guidedoesn't mean that it is reputable. Chance Encounters was printed by a publisher that I found from Sally Stuart's book. At the time there was no negative buzz about them on the Internet, either. I thought this would be all that I had dreamed of. Fortunately, I lost no money in the deal, but others were not so lucky. Just be careful and research any publisher or printer before you sign a contract.

[IronWill]

What about CafePress? I've taken a look at them, and it seems fairly reasonable. You don't have to purchase any books yourself, you just upload the information, they put it together into a book whenever somebody buys one, and you keep the profit(at least I'm fairly certain that's how it works). I should ask another author friend of mine who has used CafePress successfully.

*wanders off*

[Daniel]

has anyone ever heard of a company by the name of Tate Publishing?

www.tatepublishing.com or .org, i think..haha

[TanyaSue]

I believe there is a whole thread on Tate Publishing somewhere on this site.

btw - Dr Rita - I'M LISTENING! I need to go to a writers' conference. I get it. I'm doing my research now and hoping to hit a couple in 2007. :)

[jimpalmer]

i went through a crash course on traditional publishing when i signed to write two books for Thomas Nelson Publishers. just to give you an idea, i was encouraged to use this template (http://www.stevelaube.com/How%20to%20Write%20a%20Non-fiction%20Book%20Proposal.pdf) for my submission. some people don't realize that an "advance" is like a loan. your book sales must cover your advance before making any other royalties. therefore, it's important in your contract, as a newbie author especially, to set the condition that you keep your advance regardless of how sales go. otherwise, some authors are in situations where they might have to pay back some of their advance.
i've had a great experience with Thomas Nelson, but the promotion side of things has been demanding.

[love2write]

Please heed the warnings in this thread. I got duped by the same publisher as tlm. I paid nothing to them and believed what they said about being a traditional publisher. POD publishers are far from it.

Another warning: A self-published or pod book is not considered a legitimate publishing credit. You cannot include it in your bio when you query agents and publishers. It sounds unfair but it is true.

Cafe Press is nothing more than a printing company that produces stickers, calendars, coffee mugs, tee shirts, and such. If you are a serious writer do not upload your book there.

Some people are using Lulu.com. Although I've heard they are good to work with your book will again be considered self-published. Now if you are producing say a family cookbook or a short book of poems and you just want to give a copy to your family and friends Lulu would be fine for that. But for a serious writer it's out of the question.

Tate is a vanity press that is very expensive.

If you are serious about being a published author, I can tell you from experience that patience is the key. You have to know the ropes as far as presenting your book to agents and publishers. Work hard to not only be a great writer but an educated one as far as the industry goes. Do not get impatient.

Remember, a self-published or pod book is not considered a legitimate publishing credit.

[David Meigs]

i went through a crash course on traditional publishing when i signed to write two books for Thomas Nelson Publishers. just to give you an idea, i was encouraged to use this template (http://www.stevelaube.com/How%20to%20Write%20a%20Non-fiction%20Book%20Proposal.pdf) for my submission. some people don't realize that an "advance" is like a loan. your book sales must cover your advance before making any other royalties. therefore, it's important in your contract, as a newbie author especially, to set the condition that you keep your advance regardless of how sales go. otherwise, some authors are in situations where they might have to pay back some of their advance.
i've had a great experience with Thomas Nelson, but the promotion side of things has been demanding.
Jim, thank you for that first hand advice. I for one hadn’t thought (much) about the big “what if” a book’s sales are less than adequate to fund the advance. That would blow like a hurricane. I’m off to look at your link. Thanks!

[AnnieJ]

Jim, thank you for that first hand advice. I for one hadn’t thought (much) about the big “what if” a book’s sales are less than adequate to fund the advance. That would blow like a hurricane. I’m off to look at your link. Thanks!

Actually MOST authors do not earn much, if any, above the advance. This is why you want an agent who will get you the top range of advances. (they are all over in the Christian market from (1,000 to 50,000 dollars). If you get the low end you may get those royalties but so many things can go awry between the inital contract and the royalties (which often take a year after publication to begin to show up) that it's not bad to have the cash in hand. Also, the advance is not a loan so much as an investment. You should never have to pay it back (of course, as was pointed out, that does happen).

This is just the basic kind of thing every writer needs to educate themselves about -- how the business works, how writers are paid, how publishers make offers. Who is a legit publisher or agent.
If you wish to be traditionally published, you are aiming to be your own business and must approach it like that. Learn about publishers, get yourselves into bookstores. Not online. All sorts of things go on online that are not indicative of the real business. Go into a store and see what publishers have books on the shelves, see what looks like your book, what's out there.

annie jones (Sisterhood of the Queen Mamas - Out now - "Engaging... Laugh out loud funny." -Publisher's Weekly)

[TanyaSue]

Jim - That template is actually in the back of the book I am currently reading (ONE of the books I am currently reading!). I love knowing that I'm actually reading the RIGHT stuff!! :)

[kriswrite]

Be careful with the Christian Writer's Market Guide. Generally, it's a good thing, but unfortunately the book lumps vanity presses in with traditional publishers. If you're new to writing, this can be very confusing, and waste your time. Always double check a market found in the CWMG with Writer's Market.

Kristina

P.S. The new edition of CWMG is due out in early 2007.

[jimpalmer]

Jim - That template is actually in the back of the book I am currently reading (ONE of the books I am currently reading!). I love knowing that I'm actually reading the RIGHT stuff!! :)

by the way, i really liked this on your blog, "God is present always and everywhere. The problem is that we don't always recognize it. This site is my journey of finding and recognizing God in the dailies; in the ordinary, everyday points of life."

[DrRita]

btw - Dr Rita - I'M LISTENING! I need to go to a writers' conference. I get it. I'm doing my research now and hoping to hit a couple in 2007. :)

Thanks Tanya, I'm sorry to be so pushy! LOL! But I do believe it's a great way to break in.

As for the advice of getting an agent, right on! Their business is to negotiate contracts, help you get what is fair and keep you from ending up with the small piece of the pie.

Research, educating yourself, going to conferences, belonging to writer's groups and organizations, networking and most of all learning your craft is the way a writer becomes an author. !thumbsup!

[kriswrite]

Actually, whether or not you get an advance has little do with whether or not you have an agent and more to do with how large a publishing company 0is.

For example, a small press like Schiffer Books does not offer advances at all. To anyone. With or without an agent. But a big house like Zondervan offers an advance to everyone. With or without an agent.

What an agent can sometimes do is get you a larger advance. (More important roles an agent plays: Getting you past the slush pile, and getting you a fair contract.)

I also have to disagree that serious writers can't self publish. Many now-famous writers have self published. But you need to have good reasons (as I've discussed in earlier posts).

I completely agree that writers should seek traditional publishers first. The process of seeking a publisher is one that helps us become better writers. But in some cases, self publishing is a much better option.

Kristina

[TanyaSue]

Jim - THANKS for visiting my site! I need to update it. It's been a while since my last post ... Your book sounds very interesting. I read a snippet on Amazon. May have to grab that one. Sounds like it's right up my alley. CONGRATS on getting it published!!

DrRita - lol. You're funny. I didn't think you were being too pushy. I am sure what you say is true -- I've just not had the opportunity yet. Didn't want you to think you were only an echo. I hear you loud and clear. ;)

[Daniel]

Well, I did find those threads, and I think I'll still go with Tate. I have looked at others, and it's even harder. Since I do believe in my work, I'd be willing to invest money. At least, at a reasonable rate. :P They are the first people I've ever sent a manuscript too. And this is really my first completed manuscript. so it's pretty intense. Even though they sent me one already, I wasn't able to pay anything on it. They were fine with that. But anways, thanks for the info!

[Merry]

Daniel...I'm not going top re-hash everything that has been said....But, your first manuscript?Fiction, right? Self-publish: bad idea.

[Daniel]

You're not rehashing anything. I would love to have someone point the way to a publisher that will be willing to help a first time author. self-publishing is if you do everything on your own, right? I do not have the resources to do that. I've looked at different publishing companies. And If anyone can point to a publishing company that is willing to take a chance on me, which I've never had anyone do for me, then that's that. No, I'm not mad or anything, I'm just stating my point.

[tlm]

If you really want to go the self-publishing route, Lulu press is very simple to use and set up. There are a variety of levels (as far as payment) too. I am advising a friend that I am working with on a story of local interest, to use Cafe press because of the size of the book (pricing and all). Don't pay when you can get a better deal.

[DraperJC]

Tate is 'not recommended' by Preditors and Editors.

http://www.anotherealm.com/prededitors/pebt.htm

If you insist on self publishing, please go into it with open eyes and closed wallet. If your goal is to spend 500 to 1000 dollars or more on a box of books with questionable production quality and cover artwork that is not up to current standards then go ahead. Just know what you are getting into.

[gregholmes]

If you're planning to self publish I think the best way to go is with Lulu.com which is less expensive than cafepress even. The only upfront cost is $100 to purchase an ISBN for the book. This puts you in what Lulu calls "Global Distribution" which means your book is listed with ingrams, making it available for worldwide distribution. It will appear on online bookstores and be available for any brick and mortar store to order in, but you still have to market it.

The downfall of all self-publishing is marketing...if you don't already have a base of interest for you or your book, you won't sell many. If you're not interested in larege volume sales, and high upfront costs, and you're primarily looking to get something published, go with Lulu.

I had a book published there just to check it out, see if they delivered what they said. $5.60 later I had my own book in hand.

[kriswrite]

Daniel, almost any legitimate publishing house is willing to seriously look at the work of a new novelist. What makes you believe otherwise?? It is true that some of the larger houses will only look at work submitted by an agent, but getting an agent is possible for a new writer, too.

self-publishing is if you do everything on your own, right

Yes, but Tate is just helping you to self publish.

Kristina

[wgjones3]

Let me just clear something up if I can.

Self publishing is when YOU are the one who decides whether or not your book gets published. Not an editor, not a publisher--you. Hence the term self-publishing. A more general way to say it is if you have to pay to get published, it's self publishing. Lulu and Cafepress may not charge you to print your book, but you do have to pay for an ISBN if you want it registered, so that somewhat still applies.

Traditional publishing is when a) you get paid for your work, b) someone else handles the printing/distribution, c) there is some kind of editorial control over what gets published and what doesn't. There's also a flow of money toward the author, not away from the author.

Any self publishing company / vanity press can promise that your book will be available through Barnes & Noble, Books A Million, Borders, Amazon, etc... What they don't tell you is that your book is never shipped to a brick and mortar store unless someone explicitly orders it and pays for it in advance. Some vanity presses are changing this--apparently Tate ships its top sellers to bookstores, and Barnes & Noble has a program with one of the big self-publishing companies to put top-selling books in their stores. The key here--top selling.

Pretty much any book that's good enough to make it into stores under that program is a book that was good enough to be published traditionally in the first place.

The problem I have, which I think is the same problem Doc and Merry and a few others on this thread have, is the attitude that once a book is written, it deserves to be published. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Anyone who is so ego-driven that that can't see the flaws in their own work, that can't accept rejection or cope with the fact that the competition is fierce and that in order to make it in the publishing world, you have to work harder and smarter and faster and better than everyone else shouldn't be a writer.

Let's talk about the publishing world for a minute--the world of traditional publishers, of the Thomas Nelsons and Simon and Schusters. Publishing is a very marginalized business. A publisher may only make a dollar or less on every book sold. No publisher can afford to take on a writer whose skills aren't equal to the bestsellers out right now. I once had an agent tell me, if you're going to get an editor to even look at your work, you have to write at an A+ level. That doesn't necessarily mean things like grammar and punctuation, it means you have to write a story that is well-paced, that follows a proven thematic structure, that grabs the reader's attention and propels that reader through the next ninety thousand words. And you have to do all that just to get an editor to read your work!

So many people seem to have this notion that writers type up a first draft and send it off and someone else does all the work. Or that a writer doesn't learn the craft until he/she gets published. But you have to make that investment in yourself BEFORE you even begin the journey. You have to learn what a dramatic structure is, what readers want and expect from a book. You have to learn how to approach publishers, how to write queries that grab the editor's attention, how to create a proposal, how to market a book if it does get published, how to handle yourself in every situation you'll face as a writer. It's not enough to have a grasp of the vocabulary and a knack for stringing words together, you have to learn the business of being a writer and you have to invest yourself in it before a publisher will invest their resources in you.

Imagine if you were the acquisitions editor of a big publishing company, and you knew your job depended on signing writers who made money for the company instead of losing money--if your very livlihood and the well being of your family depended on it--which writer would you sign? The author whose writing still needs a lot of work, who didn't bother to learn the rules and just goes by the seat of his/her pants, or the author who has demonstrated professionalism from the outset, whose work reflects a knowledge and understanding of the craft, and whose manuscript is already polished and nearly production-ready? And before you answer, think about this--if it's going to cost fifteen thousand dollars in man-hours to fix one author's manuscript, while another manuscript isn't as good but is ready to go into print without spending a dime on it, which do you think that acquisitions editor will sign off on?

Before somebody says they didn't do any of those things and they still got published, let me add that I know there's exceptions to everything. But the odds aren't in favor of a miraculous acquisition.

Another thing you have to ask yourself is why you're doing this. Is it for money? Most published writers aren't full-time authors, they either work other jobs to support themselves and their families or they have someone else who supports them. Writing a bestseller and becoming rich is harder to do than winning the lottery. If you're doing it for the art, then great--why be concerned about the commercial process at all? Just send it to lulu and be done with it. Sell one copy or one million, it doesn't matter if it's truly art, right? But if you're doing this because this is all you've ever wanted to do, if you wake up every morning thinking about writing and you sit at your job wishing you were writing, if you come home early at night to write, if you stay up late writing and you wake up early to write--if this is the only thing you can do with your life and be happy, if this is your true calling--then you're going to have to learn the business, play by the rules, and work harder than you've ever worked so that someday you can make a living from your writing.

Take any author you like, they didn't just wake up one day, decide they were bored and they'd just write a book. Odds are they wrote manuscript after manuscript before they were discovered. And odds are, they wrote many books before they broke out into prominence. Being a writer is a fuller-than-full-time job. And just because you have the desire and the talent, doesn't mean you'll make it.

The internet is full of free resources for writers in the form of blogs and message boards and even author websites. If you've got internet access, there's no need to spend lots of money learning the business--you can learn a lot for free if you just look around. And if you are willing to invest in your career, do what Doc said and go to a writing conference. Don't go to get published or get discovered, go to learn. And if you do get published, all the better.

Once anybody gets the attitude that they've arrived, that they're better than anybody else and they don't need to work anymore, once they start looking for shortcuts and lashing out at anyone who doesn't offer one--they've lost the game. Ask any writer, there are no shortcuts worth taking, and this writing life isn't the life of leisure and easy riches so many assume. Some of the best writers of our generation will never get published, some of the worst will. That's just how it works.

It takes luck, it takes persistence, and it takes God's blessings. It also takes a never-give-up attitude.

All that said, there are people who self-published their way into a career. They also worked hard at it, hand-selling books and investing lots and lots of money and time into the processes. But, I would also imagine, they learned the business before they self-published, and they did a lot of hard work nobody ever knows about because the idea of going from self-published to bestseller is a more romantic notion if the process is effortless.

All that said, let me say one last thing. An editor may get a hundred queries a week. He/she may request twenty manuscripts per month. He/she may only read three or four of those manuscripts all the way through. And the company he/she works for may only sign one or two new authors every year. With so many writers trying to get published, and with the number of aspiring writers growing every year, the only way to stand out is to be exceptional at the craft. You catch an editor on a bad day, they may reject your query out of hand without reading past the first paragraph, whereas they might have requested a full manuscript and signed you had they read the second paragraph, which they would have done any other day. It's a subjective business. And if you're writing for Him, its all in God's hands anyway.

[paulchernoch]

I agree with William, but also think we are facing a false dilemma here. A person who pursues self-publishing can find substitutes for all the services offered by a traditional publisher, but they need to know what those services are and how much they cost. Marketing, promotion, distribution channels, cover art, and the like are important. But the most essential one is validation from a highly critical and experienced reader. When an acquisitions editor says, "Good enough to publish," their words carry weight with a lot of people, people who stand to lose money if that editor's judgment is poor.

If you self-publish, you are assuming that risk and those costs. You owe it to yourself to find one or more critical, experienced people and pay for their opinion. Otherwise you will be flying blind. No one but a reader other than yourself can judge whether your book is good for anyone but you. Objective feedback is ESSENTIAL and cannot be wisely shortcut.

- Paul

[Keith Wallis]

The problem I have, which I think is the same problem Doc and Merry and a few others on this thread have, is the attitude that once a book is written, it deserves to be published. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Anyone who is so ego-driven that that can't see the flaws in their own work, that can't accept rejection or cope with the fact that the competition is fierce and that in order to make it in the publishing world, you have to work harder and smarter and faster and better than everyone else shouldn't be a writer.
thought that deserved to have an Amen WG.

[TanyaSue]

But if you're doing this because this is all you've ever wanted to do, if you wake up every morning thinking about writing and you sit at your job wishing you were writing, if you come home early at night to write, if you stay up late writing and you wake up early to write--if this is the only thing you can do with your life and be happy, if this is your true calling--then you're going to have to learn the business, play by the rules, and work harder than you've ever worked so that someday you can make a living from your writing.

Thank you! I love this. Your entire post was brilliant, but this part caught my breath.

[ProfessorAlan]

We have kicked around all of these topics before, but this is the first post that pulls it all together.

WG summed up of the reasons I have never never never considered self-publishing. It shouldn't even be called publishing, it's more like "self-printing."

[kriswrite]

Wgjones, well said.

Kristina

[AnnieJ]

Amen and amen, WGJones!

A very honest and well-considered summation. Too bad beginning writers don't get to go to bootcamp (should that be bookcamp?) because this would be a great opening speech for the drill sargeant to impart.

annie jones(no relation to WG, y'all) (Sisterhood of the Queen Mamas - out now "Engaging...Laugh out loud funny." Publisher's Weekly.)

[whitehawke]

Mr Jones, very well said.

[wgjones3]

Bookcamp? Heh, if there was such a thing, I'd be on the receiving end--so maybe it's a good thing there's not.

I just want to add to that--since I wrote it at work this morning and didn't get the chance to get across everything I wanted to say--I'm not against self publishing. Honestly. I don't ever want to come across as bashing it. I have friends who self published, I have a friend whose wife had a deal with a traditional publisher and she ended up on the losing end of that deal. In fact, my friend told me once that the publisher did nothing to help the book succeed and they had to hand-sell it, that once her contract was up they were in the position of either trying to find another publisher, then having to go out and hand-sell books again, or self-publish and hand-sell books. Either way, they were going to have to hand-sell. He's since started writing, they're both excellent authors, and for them, self-publishing was a way to get their work out there without making compromises. Their work compares well to anything on the bestseller rack right now, it's very polished and very enjoyable.

Likewise, I once heard an author talk about his decision to self-publish from the standpoint that his works appealed to a niche audience, and that he realized his sales had plateaued and weren't going to grow, and he was earning a dollar per book with his old publisher whereas he earned five dollars per book as a self-published author.

The distinction in my mind is that neither of them looked at self publishing as the easy way out. And in both cases, the authors had a platform from which to promote their work in lieu of brick and mortar shelf space. They were educated about the business, understood what they were doing, accepted the risks and embraced the challenge with eyes wide open.

I honestly have nothing but respect for anyone who self publishes and does it right. But I don't see self-publishing as a substitute for traditional publishing in the sense that it's easier or requires less work. And I have nothing but contempt for the companies that prey on writers' ambition and hopes by trying to convince them that self-publishing is the only way to get started. That contempt sometimes spills over into what I'm saying when I talk about this stuff, and it's not meant to be a reflection on my feelings toward self published authors at all. Some of these companies and the people who run them are no better than vultures and it makes me sick to watch them mess with people's lives, it raises my blood pressure just thinking about it.

I encourage anyone out there who has made the decision to self publish to do so through Lulu.com. In fact, I'm helping my pastor set up his own publishing imprint through Lulu. But I also encourage everyone who is thinking about self publishing to go into it educated and aware, not just because they think it's the easiest or only way into publishing.

[SarahMac]

What about the WritersEdge and Christian Manuscrpit Submission websites? (they look identical, really, as far as prices and services.) Several big-name publishers reccomend them. (Revel/Baker House/Bethany House, Thomas Nelson, Harvest House, WaterBrook Press etc.) Do ya'll think that is a reasonable, effective way to get one's proposal out there?

I'm not sure if this shouldn't have it's own thread...but it seemed to flow with the traditional publishing/self-publishing query. :-)
Sarah

[TanyaSue]

It seems ... (and I may be wrong) ... that WritersEdge and CMS are substitutions for having an agent. Most of the publishers working with them will not accept unsolicited materials. The only way to get in is to use WritersEdge/CMS OR an agent.

If choosing between the two, an agent is better for the writer. First, there's no money up-front. Second, the agent only gets paid if he/she sells your proposal or manuscript. Because of that, an agent will work for you and fight for your work. A service like WritersEdge may get you in the door, but they will not work for you; they will not persuade the publisher in your direction. It's not a voice on the phone or a familiar relationship; it's just a monthly spreadsheet.

Having said all that, please note that I haven't done either. I've just read a lot and done a ton of research. I was very much leaning toward WritersEdge when I first started, but since learning a lot more about the business of publishing, I am now working on the best ways to snag an agent. ;)

[kriswrite]

Sarah's I think Tanya is right. Writers Edge tries to take the place of an agent. And she's right that an agent is better for the writer in the long run. But sometimes I think it's tougher to get an agent than it is to find a publisher. I've tried to get an agent for two different projects, and I have a proven track record, but I've been unable to find anyone interested. On the other hand, I've not had any major difficulties selling my own manuscripts, including to a big house like Zondervan. (Which, incidentally, when I queried them a couple of years ago, still accepted unagented material via email.) So a case could be made for Writers Edge.

What a writer could do is submit through Writers Edge, and when they (hopefully) get a publisher interested in offering a contract, get themselves an agent. This would slow down getting a book contract, but could potentially work.

Tanya's post makes me wonder if Writers Edge might be a good option for a book I have in mind but can't get an agent interested in. (Yet I know it fits in best with publishing houses that don't accept unagented material.) I have a resistance to paying anyone for a service like this, but from what I've read thus far, Writers Edge is legit.

But to address Sarah's post, a very effective way to get your proposal seen is to follow the traditional route of querying a specific editor at a specific house, then (when requested) immediately sending along a polished, well thought out proposal and sample chapters (or, if requested, a full manuscript). Old technology, yes. But it works :)

Kristina

[Gravity]

I was on faculty at this year's Glorieta conference, and one of the things that came up during our staff meeting was the subject of agents. I was astounded. Numbers drive the publishing business (as they do every business), and economics dictate publishers begin using agents as their frontline screeners. Nearly every house said they have either closed their doors to non-agented manuscripts, or will do so shortly. Granted, there are couple still open to dealing with authors directly, but those days seem to be numbered.

[AnnieJ]

>I was on faculty at this year's Glorieta conference,

I know its been said before again and again but it's still a better use of time and money in the Christian market to attend a reputable conference where agents/editors/writers will be present than to spend money on other means of trying to get yourself noticed or published.

Editors (that now rely on agents to do their screening and have plenty of those calling and sending manuscripts) are not going to spend the amount of time your work deserves scouting websites for the next big thing. I suspect anyone found through these services would have made it through other means.
Getting back to the kernel that started this thread ;) they also will not consider your self-pubbed effort as a publishing credit that will ease the way to them offering your a contract. Getting published is a business, YOUR business, you cannot simply create a work then be passive and expect others to take it to the marketplace, you have to learn, try, fail sometimes, and keep at it.

I had 8 complete and partial manuscripts, more than 50 rejections and no agent when I sold my first book 10 years ago. 31 books sold (meaning some are contracted, not done) and I still work at the business end of it every day.

annie jones -(Sisterhood of the Queen Mamas - out now? - "Engaging... Laugh out loud funny" - Publisher's Weekly)

[Merry]

Super kudos to WG for saying what needed to be said in a succint logical fashion. Sir, when I grow up, I wanna write like you.

Annie- Amen on the conferences...Sure hope someone was listening this time.

[DrRita]

I've been gone for several days and I just have to give WG's post a two-thumbs way up!!! Thanks, WG.

[Mitch Haynie]

So for someone who is a novice and an unknown to the genral publishing world, where do I go, where do I start in finding an agent and/or publisher?

[TanyaSue]

Mitch - First, WELCOME! ;) Second, to answer your question ...

Get a market guide. There you'll find basic information on tons of publishers, agent and more. This is a great starting point for your research.

You'll also want to check out the "preditors & editors." (I'm sure there's a link somewhere on this site.) This will tell you who to stay away from.

Hang around here a bit! You'll learn a lot in short order.

Hit a writers' conference when/if you can. There you'll learn more and even rub shoulders with a few. (I've not been to one yet, but there are many here who have and can tell you much more about them.)

Basically, just do your research. Be patient and diligent. And, as with everything, PRAY. God will show you where you need to be and where you need to go.

[DrRita]

Mitch, that's the part of writing that every writer has to work at. Look up resources, join a writer's group, go to a writer's conference and study your craft.

[mel01]

Well I'm wary of the people who want $ up front for another reason: because for me, being in Australia, there's an exchange rate involved.

As for self-publishing... I don't think so. I've talked to enough customers (I work in Christian retail) who've done it and have seen how hard it is for them to get sales. They usually have a box of books in their garage... that they can't sell. Plus just to get them into our shop is difficult, usually we take them on consignment, meaning if they don't sell then we return them.

I've decided I won't go self-publishing, mainly because the series I'm working on (for which manuscript one is complete) is regarding a social issue - a novel that looks at kids going through the divorce of parents - which I think needs to be out there. So I want a publisher to take me on so that the message can get out there. In a way I don't need to be published... but I believe that the message I have needs to be out there.