The Magic Question

[Phy]

Is there a place for magic in Christian fantasy?

I have a very good friend whom I meet with as part of a weekly men's bible study. He was briefly engaged to my sister, and was an usher in my wedding 20 years ago.

We go way back.

He is a wise, Godly man. I feel I am, as well, to an extent.

We had a brief snit a week ago at our 6am breakfast. I had just gone to see HP4 with another buddy from the study, a guy who reads voraciously, as I do. We both thoroughly enjoyed it (although he felt that they left out a /ton/ of stuff, and I just enjoyed the film for its own sake).

I asked M. if he'd seen it yet, and he actually sniffed (something I'd never seen him do) and said that he hadn't read any of the books and wasn't about to see any of the films.

I'm not used to seeing M. this closed-minded about something, and I uttered a phrase that will haunt me for the rest of my life (remember, it was 6am and I'm not a morning person):

"Oh, you're one of /those/."

Talk about slamming the door on a feeling of grace. I'd never thought that I'd ever say something so crass, so classless. I'm used to surprising myself and others. It is ususually by exceeding expectations. This was the polar opposite of that. I'm flushed just thinking about it to recount it here, but don't have time to pretend among the brethren.

There was a brief, hot-blooded scene where two Christian men, heads of households, and long-time brothers in Christ, were opponents, each guarding his own territory, each unwilling to bend. It was shameful, and I later apologized for everything that I had done. I received no such apology from him.

The thing is, I sort of understand his position - he errs on the side of safety for the sake of his kids.

I took my 12 year old son to it, and he loved it. We talked about it all the way home, about sacrifice and girls and dances and the nature of bravery and putting yourself in harm's way for a friend (or even for someone you don't know, because you believe and you don't know if they do). It was very good conversation.

The thing is, I don't think my buddy is as open-minded about my perspective as I am about his.

Back in 2000, Chuck Colson wrote the following:
"What the fascination with Harry Potter really illustrates is what C. S. Lewis meant by Sehnsucht -- the longing for the mysterious, the wonderful, the other-worldly that our daily experience does not satisfy." - The Harry Potter Craze, by Chuck Colson, BreakPoint Commentary, 17 July, 2000

So here's the question - without getting into the already vigorous debate about Harry Potter, what should be our position as Christians with regard to the depiction or discussion of magic?

DKA's venerable founder Rebecca Shelley Flowers, has a long, interesting take (http://dkamagazine.com/Forum/weblog_entry.php?e=385) on this subject on her blog, and if you haven't read it yet, it's worth the read.

I'm also thinking about those who have gone on before, specifically Tolkien and Lewis, and how they used (or didn't use) magic in their literature. Finally, I'm thinking about one final aspect. I believe that God is moving right now, in this moment of time, bringing forth a faithful remnant of literary, creative, believers to minister to the world through our art. As believers, we are to be salt and light to the world, and I don't see how we can do that if we only preach to the choir. I write stories with a moral component in a universe predicated on Providence (that is, I assume a universe created by God without being preachy). A recent interview (http://firstnoveljourney.blogspot.com/2005/12/author-interview-ted-dekker.html) with author Ted Dekker reveals a similar perspective:

Gina: I’ve read that you have a pet peeve about fiction written by Christians being called “Christian fiction.”

Ted: Yeah. I believe artists create art. Some singers sing about rescue from sin, some sing about the beauty of lilies, or the smell of pine in a forest. Which song pleases the Creator more, the one about redemption or the one praising Him for His creation? He created the smell of pine. He created those lilies. I think both songs please Him.

You know my brother owns a hearing-aid company. When he’s fitting someone for a hearing-aid, if he’s not singing a hymn or quoting John 3:16, no one tells him he’s a bad Christian. They tell him thanks, he’s been a blessing. Isn’t it cool that we each have different gifts?

When we get to Heaven we’ll be talking about our Creator, praising Him, speaking of the beauty of His creation, the lilies, the pine, not about redemption because that will be behind us. Some people think that sounds boring—to worship God for eternity, but it won’t be. We’ll be appreciating beauty for beauty’s sake.

I think any story that doesn’t mock God, glorifies Him. An artist who paints a flower is honoring the Creator because God created that flower.

I don’t buy Christian gas, shop at a Christian grocery store, smell Christian flowers, and I don’t feel I need to write Christian fiction. I want to write a great story that will entertain and bless someone.

We have authors out there who write about huge battles between good and evil, King, Koontz, and others. I think the best person to be telling these stories is someone who understands what it’s really all about.

So what should we, as readers and writers and believers, do about the question of how we treat magic? The answer to this could color many things, from what we write, to what we read, to what we publish.

Y'all have the floor.

[wgjones3]

I think you could substitute 'sin' or 'violence' or 'sexuality' or 'spiritualism' or 'denomination' in place of magic and the context of the question wouldn't change one bit.

As writers, we have to chose whether to write what's in us to write (read, what God put on our heart to write), or whether to fetter our creative passions with audience/market concerns. It seems to me the ones who fetter the least are the ones who eventually attain an enthousiastic audience.

I'm reminded of an Amazon review I read of a book that had dozens and dozens of 5 star reviews. Everyone who reviewed it loved it, except for this one guy. And you could tell just by the first paragraph of his review that it wouldn't have mattered how good the book was, he wasn't going to like it because all those other people did. Now, does that mean the author did something wrong? No. Does it mean this guy was wrong to dislike it? Absolutely not--his perception was peppered by factors outside the author's control. This may be unfair in a broad sense, but they're also unavoidable and the guy's opinion was unflappable.

It doesn't matter what you write, somebody is going to dislike it and find fault in it. It's just like church--it doesn't matter how you live your life or what the state of your soul and relationship with God is, there's a denomination out there that actively preaches that YOU are going to burn in hell for all eternity because of the way you live. Different people believe differently, and they believe passionately. And--in all honestly, you can't change what they believe. So I'd take the advice Jesus gave his discples, that if you aren't received, shake the dust off your shoes and move on. Somebody out there is receptive to the kind of stories you're wanting to write.

If your motivation is to reach the broadest audience by fettering your writing to meet market demands, then I'd suggest romance novels. They seem to sell way better than anything else in CBA right now. But if your motivation is to--as you said--answer God's call to minister through the arts, then write what you're passionate about and let the market work itself out later. Readers won't change for you, don't change for them.

God is the only audience that truly matters.

[DrRita]

I believe you have a legitimate calling to write. As WG pointed out, write your passion and do it for all the inspiration and strength God has given you. We cannot constantly be taking our temperature with the public thermometer. Throughout history God has called ordinary men and women to do extraordinary things in a hostile and unfriendly world. True creativity is always going to bring both praise and condemnation where as mediocrity (marching with the masses) will be applauded and forgotten.

I belong to a secular screenwriter's group and I honestly have to say most of them are looking for something meaningful to write about and/or believe. They want to tell stories that have meaning and will impact our society. The problem is they have little insight into the great problems of life and human nature because they are looking at the mudhole from the mud. We are most truly blessed in that we have the mind of Christ and the eyes and ears of God. We have the capacity--no the obligation--to write with that insight, revealing the truth about life. We have been given the ability through the Holy Spirit to understand why humanity is the way it is, and given insight into life and all it's problems in a way that the secular world rarely, if ever, can. Why would we want to withold that from those who are needy? If ever a scripture applied to your question I think this one does:

Now it happened, as He was dining in Levi’s house, that many tax collectors and sinners also sat together with Jesus and His disciples; for there were many, and they followed Him. And when the scribes and Pharisees saw Him eating with the tax collectors and sinners, they said to His disciples, “How is it that He eats and drinks with tax collectors and sinners?”
When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance. Mark 2:15-17

I cannot say it any better than Jesus did.

[ProfessorAlan]

Magic is different from sex or violence because (from what I can tell) magic does not exist, so its treatment will be a little different. Magic is more like unicorns and pegasii and aliens and warp drive --- useful in an imaginative tale but less so in a contemporary novel.

One of the things I like about Narnia:LWW is the inclusion of so many mythical beasts -- pheonix, fawns, centaurs, etc . . . in the context of the story, all of these things fit, as do talking beavers and a magic-performing witch.

I have long been kicking around the idea of a Chrsitan vampire story . . .

[illuminati]

I have long been kicking around the idea of a Chrsitan vampire story . . .

Great! Why not?? Who's the main authority up "there" that decides what a Christian may or may not write? Why can't a Christian write a vampire story or an alien invasion story? If the author can use the story to a) encourage his fellow Christians in these uncertain times, or b) to reach out to the lost, then why not? How many angels vs. demon books or Historical Romance novels can an audience swallow?

If God wrote the Bible with today's Christian readers in mind, the book would have been a LOT different. It would have been a politically-correct, watered down, violent free book that would have only mentioned the crucifixion as a fleeting afterthought.

Different worlds allow for different things to happen. In Roger Rabbit's world, one could fall down from a ten storey building and not come to harm. Bullets can talk. In the world of The Matrix, one can download Kung-Fu or pilot skills in seconds. One could even dodge said talking bullets. So why can't one use magic in a fantasy world? What kind of fantasy realm does not have unicorns just because the readers don't want them to exist? Does this mean that Christian authors can't EVER write any fantasy novels?

That's just stupid!

If I REALLY wanted to, I could write, "Finding God in Harry Potter" and link Christian values to everything in the books. Would that then make Harry Potter acceptable to the Christian readership?

Stay true to your world! If you are writing a fantasy novel, let magic exist! Let there be elves, dwarfs, white and black wizards! Let them seek treasure or fame! If not, who are you kidding? Who are you writing for? Why are you even bothering?

We're trying so hard not to offend the hissy-fit cry-babies out there that we're limiting God to truly working through us as writers to reach the lost and encourage our brothers and sisters. If ONE soul can enter heaven because I had a good wizard defeat a dragon, then so be it. Seeking the approval of men only leads to disappointment.

On that note... SHAZAM!!

[Merry]

Wheww-Hoo! Well said! There is a ton of 'spiritual correctness' out there. Like we all have to be against the latest 'thing' to be against. Be interesting to find out who's driving Christian pop-culture. 'Drives you crazy.

The sad part is that when you get this novel finished, you will probably have to send it to a secular publisher because I can not fathom a regular CBA publishing house putting out such a story.

But I agree with you. We need to quit preaching to the choir and write what will get people saved.

[Nessa-Ciryatan]

I really don't get this whole thing about offending people by being a Christian and writing fantasy. Maybe I just haven't experienced people like that where I am, but I doubt it would matter too much for me anyway. Given that God has long blessed me with the ability to write good stories and the fact that I wasn't always a Christian made me search my own conscious and seek God's will concerning what I loved to do, which is write.

I write fantasy and sci-fi, so 'magic' in writing was something I thought and prayed about. I think C. S. Lewis - and, indeed, Chuck Colson - put things so succinctly, summing up wonderfully what people feel and that sense of adventure that and wonder that seems less common somehow nowadays.
"What the fascination with Harry Potter really illustrates is what C. S. Lewis meant by Sehnsucht -- the longing for the mysterious, the wonderful, the other-worldly that our daily experience does not satisfy." (Chuck Colson)
What a wonderful way to put it. :) The longing for the mysterious, the wonderful, the other-worldly... Personally, I think that longing is us yearning for heaven.

I've read some books out there that weren't written by a Christian author, but their work has given something to me, some new idea or way of thinking, or appreciation for something. I think we have to be very careful what we allow ourselves to read and take in - a lot of the time we can find we've been slowly poisoned without realising it. But I also believe that God has put this yearning for the magnificent, mysterious, and wonderful into us, and I have no qualms with including magic in my stories. Usually I make it a tool, like hands and feet, or a fact of nature, like gravity, and try to imagine "what if..." Always I try to be very careful that what I'm writing glorifies God, and shows His personality in some way.

Personally, I'm not into the Harry Potter thing. I'm very blah about it all, really. I haven't read the books, but knowing how things usually work, I'm guessing the books are better than the movies. I tried watching the first movie and pretty much fell asleep about halfway through it. I don't like the fact that it seems to be all about Harry, and his magic, and his power. I'm wary of anything where the MC beats every obstacle in his or her own strength.

What better way for Christian authors to shine the light of God's Truth into the dark and dingy secular bookstores and the minds of those who read that stuff than to write Him into books with that wonderful, other-worldly mystery? :D I wince whenever I see Christian romance novels, or end-of-days novels. There are just so many of them, and while they may have their place, I long for more sci-fi and fantasy to be published by Christian authors who can instill God into their books so that I can come away from a reading experience glorifing Him all over again for His majesty and lovliness. :D

Well, there's my two cents. :p

Nessa-C

[Merry]

I agree with Illuminati. There is a place for CBA type fiction, but there is also an entire world out there that lives far outside the pull of Christian pop-culture. The idea they'll pick up a book because, "It's Christian," is ludicrous. What does the non-Christian care if it's proper CBA fiction? They just want to be entertained. And if we can be the ones drawing them in, then there is a chance we can direct their thoughts toward salvation. It's a huge ministry.

Sadly, though, if Prof does end up writing his Christian Vampire novel, it will probably have to be picked up by a secular house, because I can't picture a CBA house taking it. Then of course, he would have to deal with a secular editor perhaps wanting to water-down his Christian imagery. It would be great if we had more Christian publishers willing to take chance. But for their side, I wonder how many CBA publishers run into the problem of poor writers acting as if they have a right to be published because they banter a few Bible verses around? We can be our own worst enemy.

[DrRita]

Illuminati, Prof. Allen, Merry, WG and Nessa! Three cheers!! This is treat and warms my heart to know that we all think the same about this. Well Said!

Christians have become too cloistered and ingrown for the most post. We don't just have our churches, now we attempt to surround our daily lives with as much Christian padding as possible so we don't have to rub elbows with the world. Christian television, Christian business, Christian books publishers . . . We're rather like a football team who never leaves the locker room. We sit around pumping each other up and planning our strategy but never get out on the playing field.

I think we should start our own publishing company and have our own press. We could publish the stuff that nobody wants. We could call it Oddball Press. LOL. Wow. Wouldn't that be a trip.

Anyway, I think God is trying to get his sheep out of the barn and into the pasture with the rest of the animals. And there's nothing to fear for "he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world."

[illuminati]

"Sadly, though, if Prof does end up writing his Christian Vampire novel, it will probably have to be picked up by a secular house, because I can't picture a CBA house taking it." - Merry

True, true. Unless he follows DrRita's advice and starts his own publishing house. I believe that's what this market needs: someone to step up and publish the stuff neither CBA nor secular publishers would touch.

The alternative is to have a young man possessed by a powerful demon that shape-shifts him into this vampire. The only hope the world has to defeating this evil being lies in a young man who struggles with his own faith as his work life and marriage crumbles hopelessly before him. He finds salvation in Christ as well as the strength and authority to beat this villain. Voila! Instant CBA material.

Don't apologize for your writing. Ever. God chose YOU to write XYZ, be it CBA-compliant or not. He believes in you as a writer. Maybe you should too...

[Phy]

Seth McMullen scats around with the idea of a principled vampire in his novel "Voyage of the Shadowmoon".

Josh Ellis penned the following on the Christian Realists list:
Ahhh... this is an excellent question, and is part of the essay I've
been researching -- but have been too lazy to write -- for a couple of
years now. Setting aside the question of "what do you mean by
/Christian/ fantasy," I think the short answer is yes, there is a place,
but it depends on how it is used. One metaphor I'm slightly enamoured
with is that of Egyptian gold: the same gold carried out of Egypt was
used to construct the golden calf (that looked like Robert Tilton,
without the horns) and to build the tabernacle. And in the realm of
fantasy, which by definition is an invocation of the unreal, there is
plenty of room of build tabernacles.

[Phy]

Magic is different from sex or violence because (from what I can tell) magic does not exist, so its treatment will be a little different. Magic is more like unicorns and pegasii and aliens and warp drive --- useful in an imaginative tale but less so in a contemporary novel.

The thing is that I totally believe that magic exists. The difference is that my definition of magic in our world is predicated on supernatural power, and thus when I talk about how magic exists in our world, I am talking about a theme as old as scripture, the supernatural struggle between angels, both faithful and fallen. So in that sense, I'm not referring to incantations or some sort of agnostic quasi-scientific system, I'm referring to allying with God and being good workmen of His spiritual power, or allying with the evil one and deliberately or unconsciously working with demonic powers.


Sorcery:
Use of supernatural power over others through the assistance of spirits; witchcraft.

It seems to me that the OT view of magic was as of a genuine power in direct or indirect opposition to God. In that sense, the use of magic was in defiance of the first commandment not to have another other gods other than God.

The use of magic in fantasy is more problematic than that in that magic in literature is just stories where the only power lies in the power of imagination. The question becomes, will we use our imagination to oppose or mock God, or exalt Him?

Josh makes a great point about motive, and it mirrors something written by the apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:20-22


"To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though I myself am not under the law) so that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law) so that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, so that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that I might by all means save some.

In this case, I take that to mean that we, as believers who have God as our source of loyalty and power, might be able to speak of the language of "magic" while serving Him. As Ted Dekker said, we are about glorifying God, not mocking Him.

So for the purposes of publication at DKA, my thinking is this; acceptable 'magic' stories do not mock God. They are either agnostic with regard to the source of their power or attribute such power (as Tolkien and Lewis did) to a greater source of Providence, that is, God Himself. Where 'magic' is specifically intended to mean supernatural demonic power in opposition to God, we'd only look at it if it demonstrated that such power is inferior to God's power and that, ultimately, love conquers all.

[ArizonaWriterBJ]

Can I reply to this as well but from a slightly different view?

First - I have to honestly say, I would be annoyed at being called "closed minded" by a fellow Christian. I expect this from the world - "You don't believe homosexuality is acceptable? Or living together, etc etc? You're so closed minded!"

Let me also say I haven't read/seen Harry Potter and I find the fantasy genre boring (Yes I know I'm surrounded here by fantasy writers, please don't shoot me!!). But when they advertise things like Harry Potter being about witchcraft and wizardry, I don't know how you can expect a person to react any other way than this gentleman did - in fact as I would.

As to whether it's appropriate to Christian fiction or not - I'm sure it is when done right. I'm sure many genres can be done under "Christian fiction" if done right.

But I guess the "done right" part is what concerns me. I hear lots about how we writers have to get out there and write what the public will read, but how much blending is too much? And there is absolutely no easy answer. I struggle with this in my own genre.

This is on my heart a lot because in my job in the mental health field we see a LOT of messed up children in our practice. As someone was saying at church today, one of the problems kids face today is the extraordinary amount of time they spend lost in a fantasy world - and therefore do not have mechanisms in place for coping with real life. And media forms have become entrenched as the permanent baby sitters of today's children, like it or not. So they are inundated with the fantasy, violence, sex, etc.

I guess my argument is a lot bigger then the original thread, but the bottom line is, no matter what genre we are writing, we DO affect society, and have to make sure we never cross that line where our writing is indistinguishable from the regular fare, and so there is still room for us closed minded individuals who err on the side of being conservative in what we view/read.

Brenda
P.S. For my own education I'd appreciate an understanding of how witchcraft in fantasy writing can be argued for the Christian category. Thanks!

[ProfessorAlan]

Sadly, though, if Prof does end up writing his Christian Vampire novel, it will probably have to be picked up by a secular house, because I can't picture a CBA house taking it.
With any luck I'll give them a chance in a few years to show their maturity and growth!

[screenwriter]

I think the magical powers in Harry Potter are demonic. But I don’t think that as believers we would go to hell for watching the film. But don’t you think the whole Harry Potter craze is the devil’s tool to steal the children away from God? After all, theirs is the kingdom of heaven. The nice story lines in the film make the movie attractive. Kind of like the wolf in sheep’s clothing.

[Phy]

I think the magical powers in Harry Potter are demonic.

I'd be curious to see where you get that from Rowling's work. From my perspective, it seems to be more mechanically animated instead of spiritually fueled.

But I don’t think that as believers we would go to hell for watching the film. But don’t you think the whole Harry Potter craze is the devil’s tool to steal the children away from God? After all, theirs is the kingdom of heaven. The nice story lines in the film make the movie attractive. Kind of like the wolf in sheep’s clothing.

t is largely agreed that the recent Chronicles of Narnia are a good thing, and in there, Lewis speaks of the Deep Magic (that looks a lot like good old agape love in action to me). In HP4, V. tells Harry that his Mother's love mined the same sort of deep magic, which is how Harry was spared as an infant and how V.'s death incantation was turned back on its caster and he ended up killing himself. That doesn't sound like demonic activity to me.

The sorts of things that I see in the film are bibilical virtues; loyalty to friends, unconditional love, selfless sacrifice. Unless kids are going to see the HP films on Sunday morning when they might otherwise be in church, I don't see where we necessarily have conflicting passions, here.

My son loves God and has enjoyed the HP series and the recent CoN film with equal interest.

I think we, as believers, need to be careful with what we share with our kids. With that said, I think we also need to be careful not to brand everything under the sun as demonic.

There was a lot of excitement when Star Wars first came out, and I remember people jumping on the bandwagon and drawing comparisons to God as the essence of The Force. However, further expansion of the series clears up that mystery until we discover things (like Midichlorians) that would have been better left unelaborated. We Christians are notorious for jumping on and off bandwagons when maybe we'd be better off just letting the subject matter speak for itself.

There are series that are alarming. As brilliant as the stories are, in the grand scheme of things, Philip Pullman's _His Dark Materials_ is compelling but clearly questionable to my mind. On the other end of the spectrum, the CoN seems as family-friendly as one can get. From my perspective, HP seems to fall somewhere in the middle, spiritually agnostic, but still possessing some positive life-lessons. Just using the language of magic doesn't mean that we're talking about something that mocks God (to refer back to the Ted Dekker comments).

I can't get too worked up that the HP stories seem to be well-written and well filmed when the themes seem so basically sound. I'll be honest - I'm far more concerned that scriptural stories and lessons aren't presented in a creative and compelling way than the fact that HP has been.

[AngelAzariah]

_____I read a good part of all this, but I can't keep going. For my part, witchcraft is real to me, there is nothing to be gained by it but I have arguments I could make about it. However, when I look at so many other sins that could be commited, witchcraft shrivles in it.
_____Speaking to someone in the right way to get what you want has been called witchcraft. Sleeping with another's wife is well beyound that. Isn't adultry worse than murder? I can't remmember at the moment.
_____In the end, my view to anything is what are the key focuses of the work. Is it magic, sex, vaolance, murder, forgivnes, blasphamy, love for those who hate you. Then, there are many views in this world, and being ignorent of them is what blocks you from connecting to others.
_____Example: I've slit my hands open, drank to the point of almost dieing (in my openion, I should have that night and I paid for it with a hang over for the next week), carved curses in my arms and chest, but I'm trying to turn away from all those things. I can sit with someone and say I've been there and I've turned away from it.
_____Anyhuu, way off subject there I think. That's my take on the whole Herry Potty thing (my wife came up with that). I just saw the Goblet of Fire -- it's a movie. I wouldn't let my children see it without giving them guidence, but I see no reasion to keep them in the dark about the world that they will one day face on their own.

[Phy]

For my part, I'm not debating that witchcraft is or isn't real. It still seems to come down to spiritual warfare in real life when you boil it down.

But it is when we talk about the more generic term "magic" in fiction that we run into this sort of healthy debate because of what fuels the fantastic. As a wordsmith, I'm as interested in the language of the fantastic as the mechanics of it, and it seems to me that much of the confusion is in something as simple as not having a common definition of terms.

I think we, as believers, need to be educated and not reckless with our terminology.

[AngelAzariah]

_____Magic is boycoted within my household, as in the actule practice of the arcain, sacrfice, curses, blastphamy, and so forth. Magic is fine in games, movies, or other places of make belive to a point. I once played a game called Black&White, I trashed it after finding out that I could sacrifice children and people to get more power. I was fine with the other magic in it, because it did not teach anything. You just wiggled your mouse, and a pretty picture flashed, and that was it.

[screenwriter]

I'd be curious to see where you get that from Rowling's work. From my perspective, it seems to be more mechanically animated instead of spiritually fueled.



t is largely agreed that the recent Chronicles of Narnia are a good thing, and in there, Lewis speaks of the Deep Magic (that looks a lot like good old agape love in action to me). In HP4, V. tells Harry that his Mother's love mined the same sort of deep magic, which is how Harry was spared as an infant and how V.'s death incantation was turned back on its caster and he ended up killing himself. That doesn't sound like demonic activity to me.

The sorts of things that I see in the film are bibilical virtues; loyalty to friends, unconditional love, selfless sacrifice. Unless kids are going to see the HP films on Sunday morning when they might otherwise be in church, I don't see where we necessarily have conflicting passions, here.

My son loves God and has enjoyed the HP series and the recent CoN film with equal interest.

I think we, as believers, need to be careful with what we share with our kids. With that said, I think we also need to be careful not to brand everything under the sun as demonic.

There was a lot of excitement when Star Wars first came out, and I remember people jumping on the bandwagon and drawing comparisons to God as the essence of The Force. However, further expansion of the series clears up that mystery until we discover things (like Midichlorians) that would have been better left unelaborated. We Christians are notorious for jumping on and off bandwagons when maybe we'd be better off just letting the subject matter speak for itself.

There are series that are alarming. As brilliant as the stories are, in the grand scheme of things, Philip Pullman's _His Dark Materials_ is compelling but clearly questionable to my mind. On the other end of the spectrum, the CoN seems as family-friendly as one can get. From my perspective, HP seems to fall somewhere in the middle, spiritually agnostic, but still possessing some positive life-lessons. Just using the language of magic doesn't mean that we're talking about something that mocks God (to refer back to the Ted Dekker comments).

I can't get too worked up that the HP stories seem to be well-written and well filmed when the themes seem so basically sound. I'll be honest - I'm far more concerned that scriptural stories and lessons aren't presented in a creative and compelling way than the fact that HP has been.

The thing that tricked me into thinking that the magical powers in Harry Potter are demonic is the name Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. What exactly is witchcraft and wizardry if it's not demonic? What other force is out there? Read Deuteronomy 18:10 and then tell me that God is okay with our interest in witchcraft and wizardry. Convince me that this is just an overreaction.

[Tim Lamb]

Hi people, some great ideas changing hands out there. Lets just be careful not to defend the secular world to vigorously or condemn others involvement in it. We live in a PG world, as we recieve guidance from the Father, we guide our children Some kids will pervert Veggie Tales while many, my two daughters included, can watch HP and see a fantacy battle of good and evil. My older child (13) is well grounded, it is just a two hour childs game to her, life goes on. My nine year old should not watch fantacy without strict supervision, she is fine if I talk her through it.
I want my children to believe three men walked into a firey furnace and were protected, a bush burned and was not consumed, the earth was created in six days, and Jesus rose from the dead. I tell them what I believe to be wrong, but I am very careful when tampering with their imagination.
I do have trouble with Illuminati's belief that the bible would be written differently today. It is all about life and death and evil is still evil and good people suffer and God is both mercyful and righteous. Gods word is timeless and the more than ten translations I own carry the same messages. If God wanted it rewritten, He would rewrite it.
The first time I watched a western with my kids I told them the blood was Ketchup, it didn't ruin the story but it kept the fiction in perspective.
That is my two bits,
Tim

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

The magic in Harry Potter is more of the mechanical variety. Read some of Enid Blyton's writings (The Faraway Tree etc) and you will see what influenced Rowling. Granted Rowling's books are far darker and have more realistic circumstances but they still have the same sort of magic - and its not the witchcraft variety. Its more akin to magician tricks and you can't tell me that demonic!
I do believe their are some humanistic views to be wary of when reading her books, but that's probably the worst of it. I enjoyed the books but the Chronicles of Narnia is still more dear to me.

[Blue Moon]

I don't mean to jump on the band wagon and yell at you all. that said, I lied magic and am saved from it so I knowa good spell or two when I see one.

Explain to me this in the first harry potter hermoine made a point to show hat correct pronounciation of terms led to the spell working. that is one of the most important things you are taught in witch craft.

Explain to me the fact of actual transformations into beasts as regarded as jokes when they themselves are signs of demonic possession.

Explain to methe fact that they have the "Runes" class, Runes which where used to diineand so forth.

Explain to me then how the powerful magics which are no allowed to those under 17 mysteriously slipped in as a conest.

Explain to me how the Llewelyns (i think) ward exists in Harry potter whenthe women whose name is as such writes stories of real wizards and witches doing real magic.

Explain how all of them are not the preparation of children to recieve demonic powers/possession, and I will beliee the power behind harry potter isn't satan.

Remember Saan is an equal opportunity employer if it doesn't support god it supports him.

PS. Leaders of the occul found record numbers of kids coming to join their orginization from the harry potter books.

There enough said.

[Blue Moon]

sorry if I was harsh I just hate magic. But I am ruly sorry if I offended or hurt anyone. truly.

[paulchernoch]

I enjoy Harry Potter - books and movies and XBOX games - and have no qualms about my children seeing them. But there was a time in my life when I would not have. Shortly after I became a Christian I had a weak conscience. The apostle Paul warns the spiritually mature to tread carefully lest they offend the weak consciences of some Christians and cause them to stumble. At that time he was talking about eating food offered to idols and a few other topics. Today he might very well refer to tastes in fiction and movies.

I remember who I was then, and it makes me a bit more careful when I speak and write. My novel employs a kind of astral travel, though not without criticism of its use by the hero. I would not have written about such a thing a few years ago. When I was a teen, an elderly neighbor gave me books on the Bermuda triangle and ESP. I actually tried having an out of body experience following the book's instructions - and succeeded! I believe that acticity is partly to blame for the demonically inspired nightmares I had a few years later, dreams that only prayer and intense bible study were finally able to rid me of. I tread lightly because such things are real.

Likewise, I refused for many years to drink any alcoholic beverages. My family has a history of alcoholism. My teetotaling caused me to act awkwardly in many social situations and to sometimes say things offensive to other Christians who did not drink to excess and had no problem with moderate drinking.

I had a roommate who gambled compulsively and grew to hate gambling of every sort. When a friend wrote a Christian play in which two people win the lottery, it was a challenge for me to stay and watch, despite its solid biblical message.

Likewise, when at a Christian retreat the facilitator asked people to participate in a visualization exercise, I panicked and fled the room. I was afraid all my friends would be sucked into the New Age movement. Only tears, prayers, and another person who felt similarly yet urged me to return to the group and share my feelings was able to calm me down and help me work through my fears.

God gives us strength, strength enough to resist aspects of our culture that are contrary to God. But not all of us have grown in faith to the point where we can trust in God's protection. Nor should we overindulge in such things, for in our pride we would be tempting God to do so.

What I am saying is, we must be mindful of the impact our work may have on weaker Christians, the kind who refuse to celebrate Halloween (which a few years ago would have included me), or read books including magic, etc. Concessions must be made on the basis of Christian compassion, so that we may make level paths for the lame to walk upon. And we should not forget that sometimes it is the lame and weak who are closer to God on a given issue, and our offense to them is not due to their overly narrow or fundamentalist views, but our backsliding!

- Paul

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

Blue Moon, by your understanding then even the Chronicles of Narnia and Lord of the Rings are 'out of bounds'. Sure they have a Christian view of the world and Christian themes, but they still contain magic (not to the degree Harry Potter does) but magic is magic.

I see nothing wrong with reading the above books as Aslan is the supreme power and the Deeper Magic is his only. The White Witch on the other hand has dabbled in the dark arts "magic" and the books are clearly against performing it.

Harry Potter does have some things to be wary of but overall if you use discernment and enjoy it I don't see a problem. Many people have asked the Holy Spirit before reading the books (and for them) there was no problem. People have different stumbling stones but listing fantasy books as a whole as demonic is just silly.

[Bill Snodgrass]

I am amazed.

I am amazed that the topic of Christian Fantasy & Magic seems always to degrade into a debate about Harry Potter. Here is my simple view.

HP has magic. Either accept it as make-believe or ban it... and also ban Lord of the Rings, Narnia, Cinderella, Beauty and the Beast, The Lion King, Hickory Dickory Dock, Santa Claus, Sleeping Beauty, Rumplestiltskin, Humpty Dumpty, and the whole lot. Ban everything with magic, or accept it as make-believe. The list goes on: Blade, Interview with a Vampire, all the Jason and Elm Street movies, and the Halloween movies. (Better get rid of Halloween the holiday while we are at it.) Talking animals are clearly out, so get rid of Animal Farm and those pig movies. Best we not mess with anything having "The Force" either.

Do I exaggerate? Yes. But the point is, why do we pick out one particular story with magic and hate it, then go home and read Cinderella to our kids as a bedtime story?

To the original question of magic in Christian fiction, I reply thus:

If Orwell can use magic (talking animals) as allegory in Animal Farm, then can Christians not use magic as a means to Christ-pointing works, too? Did Christ not teach in parables? If the reader knows it is make-believe, then the morale of the story can be beneficial.

Vampires? How about a repentant vampire sacrificing herself to save another from her evil fate? Good message, despite the vampire reference? If you think so, I can provide a link to the story.

Do I have a point?

Yes. I defend the use of magic in fantasy, and I defend the genre as a viable forum for the Christian message. I would not espouse demonic magic as something leading to good outcomes, but if the magic is not "spiritual" (as defined by the make-believe world's natural laws), then why not use it?

I understand that not everyone likes fantasy. That is fine. Some people do. They should not be judged less then for their taste. I am fine that some people hated Star Trek, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, and Harry Potter. I pretty much hated House of the Seven Gables and Scarlet Letter. I hope that's okay.

As a last thought, let me pose this: if a character uses REAL lies and deceit in a work of modern day Christian fiction, is this better than a character using made up magic?
?

[Raycapps]

To start I just would like to say, that I don’t believe in magic. I don’t think God uses it nor the devil. I think the forces of God, all spiritual forces come from advanced science. Science beyond our imagination. All of nature and creation is based on science, and I think the term magic comes from describing something we don’t understand. Consider the person in the dark ages who invented black powder to make explosions. Wouldn’t he have been labeled back then as a wizard? Even so I think that people who label things as being magical are ignorant of the forces behind those powers. Just because we don’t see what is involved doesn’t mean that it is magical. Ok, the two forces that humankind can manipulate today are the powers of God or of the devil. The bible is full of examples of healings miracle and prophesies which are the invisible powers\sciences of God. However, the powers of the devil are written about as well, witchcraft, sorcery, soothsayers this can be found within the bible as well. Why if God is so interested in miracle and healings didn’t he just give us a spell book with the incantations need to heal people or perform a miracle? Why? Because it is not by might nor by power but by my spirit says God. If all it took to heal someone was just to read out a spell from within a spell book, then where is God in this? Remember at times if the disciples didn’t have enough faith they failed to cast out demon’s. It was their faith in God not in a spell book that allowed them to succeed. The Devil tricks humankind into serving him through demonic powers. A sorcerer who studies incantations thinks he is powerful. This is the devils trick, because he is secretly behind the scenes pulling all the strings with his science. But what does the devil have? A pupil who has turned away from God in his quest for power. Beware the attraction of magical powers, fantasy novels are full of it, and it was this same desire that deceived Simon into bewitching the people of Samaria. Remember Acts 8:9—24? Did Simon lust after power? It says in Acts 8:18 When Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles hands the Holy Ghost was given and he offered them money. Remember this was after Simon was saved, and still he wanted to buy the powers like he bought his former spell books. There was spell books back then by the way, read Acts 19:19. But what did Peter say to Simon? Act 8: 20 Thy money perish with thee, 8: 21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. 8:21 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness and pray God if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. 8: 23 I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.

Now let us ask our self. How many of us could be in Simon’s shoes? One more closing thought. If Simon could have applied for the lead role in the Harry Potter films, would we have went and watched them? Clapped at the end? He would have been more than qualified for the role. Ray

[DrRita]

I don't think this debate will win any followers for or against magic. I don't think anyone reading this thread will change their view of what they believe God allows them to read/watch or forbids them to read/watch. Many good points have been made on both sides of the fence and yet, it comes down to personal conviction. Some love fantasy and tolerate the use of magic in their fiction and others think it is an abomination and offensive. Some are not convicted of any wrong doing by enjoying it and some feel it's a sin to indulge. It is a matter of personal conviction. However, there is one point of agreement--"Black" Magic is evil. Gray, white and other colors of magic are a matter to be discerned between the individual and God and we should withhold our judgement. Those who are free to read/'write/watch whatever they want do not have the right to call one who has convictions about what they read/write/watch silly or immature. And the other way around. Some things are revealed to us not for our judgment but to commit them to prayer.

[Phy]

The thing that tricked me into thinking that the magical powers in Harry Potter are demonic is the name Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. What exactly is witchcraft and wizardry if it's not demonic? What other force is out there? Read Deuteronomy 18:10 and then tell me that God is okay with our interest in witchcraft and wizardry. Convince me that this is just an overreaction.

imo, those are standard fantasy tropes seized on by a single mother writing a kids story on napkins in stolen moments at the corner cafe. Who knew that she could write? Who suspected the resonance that she would tap into about an orphaned boy of destiny trying to make his way in a world that seemed to beset him on every side?

The confusion seems to be an inability to see J. K. Rowling's 'magic' for what it is, a mechanism for telling a story that is at its heart about three kids growing up away from home.

I'm familiar with Deut. 18. I'm also familiar with fantasy. The problem is in the definition of terms. Rowling does nothing to suggest that the tropes she's using are at all the same as what is called magic, witchcraft, and wizardry in real life. It is as scary as the people who saw Gandalf the Grey, a 'wizard', and wrote him off as demonic (in many cases, without even reading the book!).

But this thread isn't about Harry Potter - the opinions there seem to be fully entrenched and I don't personally feel like being a Potter apologist - I'm not one. What I am is a man of God, an author, an editor, and one who feels a call to use the intersection of those attributes for God in a creative, intelligent manner.

The question is how to handle the fantastic when coming from a theistic background. And I think the answer is coming forth amid all the noise; that God can use anything that does not mock Him for our benefit and for His glory.

If existing terminology is causing ones to stumble, perhaps we should find clever ways to deal with the mechanism of the fantastic without using words that are (clearly) being misconstued by some who are not able or willing to understand the context in which these words are being use, context that clearly suggests something other than the real world counterparts that are just as clearly not evoking.

The debate and ideas swirling around have been instructive to me. I hope they have been to you, as well. I feel content that I have my answer, for now, and trust that the Lord will continue to reveal his Will to me going forward.

This question was prompted by submissions at DKA. It is merely one of a number of thorny questions that I hope to raise and offer for spirited debate.

Next up - what to do with demonic possession in Christian fiction. ;)

[screenwriter]

I am so amazed by the storm of opinions that resulted from a few written sentences. There is power in writing.

[Nessa-Ciryatan]

Wow, that was a great point someone made about how Christians are so quick to jump on a bandwagon. And I don't mean that offensively, because I include myself in that equation.

Paulchernoch, you've made some excellent points that are really applicable to this question. People are always at different points in their walks with God. Before I became a Christian, I was into witchcraft, astral travel, tarot cards, all that sort of yak. When I became a Christian, because of that past history, I got rid of everything even remotely like that in my life - books, movies, everything. I even threw out all of my own stories that included such things. Looking back, I really believe this was necessary for me so that I could get grounded in God and His Word first and foremost. Once I was more secure in him, I started branching out. Some of what I read now isn't good, and God is always there to give me an icky feeling about a book, or to guide my writing so that I can be sure I'm giving Him the glory in my stories and not the MC or anything like that.

I believe there's a place for moderation in a lot of things - as long as it doesn't violate your conscience. If you allow your children to watch HP, I think going through it with them, moulding their way of seeing it, is a great idea. At the same time, I really think that the kind of witchcraft and such that's promoted in that series is very destructive, and certainly not harmless, as I was there myself and know what can come of it. People can be drawn in deeped into that sort of thing if they're taught that it's harmless, or not worth be cautious over. I know someone who used the movie The Matrix to teach his youth group about an aspect of Christianity - that the world we're in isn't the real world we should be striving and achieving in, but a temporary world that the inhabitants think is very real.

It's a very dangerous thing, finding the balance for things like this. Someone else who said that children aren't learning how to cope with reality also had a really good point. That sort of thing is the basis for people getting into things like Dungeons and Dragons and other role-play games where people "put on" a different persona and can believe for a time that he or she is a beautiful elf maiden with great magical powers, or a great warrior who can overcome anything and no one can pick on him without having to face his sword.

Magic in fantasy is simply yet another tool we can use to show God's personality and goodness, his providence and guidance. If that violates your conscience, that's fine. You are entitled to your own beliefs and just because something is fine for someone else doesn't mean it has to be fine for you. If you feel you're sinning against God, then it will be like you are, the Bible says. Better not to violate your conscious and keep your focus on Him. There's nothing wrong with that. :D

Cheers all, :D

Nessa-C

[paulchernoch]

Good summation, Nessa-C.

You remind me of the Apostle Paul's statement in Romans 14:23: "But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin."

- Paul