Killed By Grammar

[AdamJ]

Since I began writing way back in 92, there is one thing that plagues me: Grammar. This only happens when I write fiction. However, when I write an essay or prose, I don't have a problem with Grammar. When I'm writing, I'm so engulfed in the story that I simply pay little attention to punctuation, tenses, possesives, etc. I don't like the fact that I suck when it comes to writing an error free piece. I hope I'm not the only one with this problem.

Aside from my shortcomings, I have to rely on Microsoft Word 2000's custom settings to pinpoint my errors. Yet, I've discovered that "it" even overlooks punctuation sometimes. Even the possessives. I thought of buying Wizard's 4 Word, but not sure if it will help me. Paying a proofreader runs anywhere from 200-2000, depending on the word count. I'm not rich. I have children, car notes, rent, bills. However, I love writing fiction. I love it so much my brain has a meltdown when I'm not putting ideas on paper.

Then I thought about seeking a writing partner. Joining forces with someone who is not plagued by grammar errors. Perhaps it may prove rewarding, or disasterous. However, the creativity that wells inside me won't be stopped by my lack of grammar. If God didn't want me to write, or express my ideas, then I wouldn't have such a burning desire to share a story that He could use to bless someone. Or, have so many ideas for Christian movies, books, graphic novels, comics, etc.

I am at my wits end.

[wgjones3]

Let me ask you a couple of questions. First, what's your typical writing process like? Do you write a rough draft, make corrections, rewrite, make corrections again, allow someone to proofread, and then make a final batch of corrections? If not, then try that before you get frustrated. It took me--no joke--something 5 years of constant writing to nail down the stuff like comma usage, proper use of POV and pronouns, etc... in my fiction. I still have other catch mistakes I make.

Secondly, is MS Word's grammer check the only thing you use? If so, just turn it off. The only thing it's good for, IMO, is catching out of place spaces, commas at the end of sentences, etc... Just my experience.

Just don't give up. Give it time and you will develop an eye for this sort of thing. There's plenty of people here who will help you if you give 'em a chance. After all, that's what this place is for. !thumbsup!

[AngelAzariah]

AdamJ,
___I was 12 in 92. :) Also, don't you think an editor is the person who makes your ideas clear. I've heard some brag as though they wrote the stories they edited. I'm not saying you need one like that, but I would just keep writing anyways. wgjones3 is right about getting an eye for errors. For example: Gump thinks I write talking heads a lot (my work is mostly diolog). Still, he gave me lots of examples of what to do to take away that effect. I still have to make sure I don't get to rapped up in the diolog and give some naration. I'm getting better though. :D

wgjones3,
___I have an older viersion of word and I turned on almost all the checking options. I'll admit it dosn't catch meny grammer problems for me, but it catachs some that I don't note without it. So I leave it on just in case, though I rearly use it. Still, some publishers warn people not to cling to that thing. I agree with them, you have to luarn and pay attention to things. BTW, how goes that shortcut?

[wgjones3]

Bah--the shortcut ain't coming along :(

I have grammer check turned on, too, but 90% of the errors it picks up aren't errors at all, and the suggestions are far worse that what it's calling an error. That's what I meant by it being useless. But I do keep it turned on because it catches the extra spacing or commas instead of periods and things like that.

[AdamJ]

Let me ask you a couple of questions. First, what's your typical writing process like? Do you write a rough draft, make corrections, rewrite, make corrections again, allow someone to proofread, and then make a final batch of corrections?


When I sit down to write, I just write. Then, after I am satified with the way the sentence, paragraph is set up, I go back and check for errors. If I don't spot any, I continue on, keep writing some more, stop, check for errors, etc. I do this until the ideas in my head are on paper and each thought makes sense. I appreciate the suggestions, and I have noticed that Word spots errors that aren't really errors at all. I've heard of this program called Wizards 4 Word, it is supposed to help writers strengthen their grammar, but I don't know if it is good or not. Besides relying on myself to spot grammar mistakes, I know of no one who is qualified to spot them for me. (ie. family members, friends)

[wgjones3]

Hmmm. I couldn't error check while I write. I find I have enough trouble chasing the ideas in my head and getting them on paper before they vanish to even think about spot checking.

But don't get down or discouraged. If you haven't read it, I'd highly recommend The Elements of Style to help you with your mechanics. You can get it in just about any bookstore or read it online for free: http://www.bartleby.com/141/

[AngelAzariah]

Oh-no not The Elements of Style by William Strunk, Jr.!
Please somebody take my life - can't stand it...

[wgjones3]

Um, ok. What prompted that outburst?

:eek:

You prefer maybe Write Right by Jan Veolia or On Writing Well by William Zinnser? They're not availible online for free though.

[Gumpngreen]

His reaction is probably due to the number of times I've told him to read it... :rolleyes:

[wgjones3]

:D !thumbsup!

[Merry]

Gump is right, Angel. There's no use falling into denial. He's told you and it's just a fact of life. Elements of Style...you can't get away from it. The doors and windows are all barred, man. It's just you and THAT book. I know, I'm reviewing it myself...we all gotta go there....be strong... :eek: :eek:

[wgjones3]

You think that's bad, I had a teacher not too long ago give everybody in class a B for the final grade because nobody knew the proper APA 5th edition format for our term papers (she said content doesn't count--ouch)!

[ChristChild]

I use an old version of WordPerfect, and it catches most grammatical errors. The errors that it doesn't catch are where you have a "were" instead of a "where" or another replacement word, such as "and" instead of "an," or similar. During the process of writing I go over and over a printed copy and catch any error I spot. I mark it down and write the date near it, then I go back to the computer file and make the changes. I scratch out that date to let me know it's been changed in the WordPerfect file. I go over the text, and I have friends go over the finished manuscript and catch and comment on every error they see, then I go back and make all those changes and I go over it again. With all that done, I still ended up with some typos that snuck into the final version. I think they multiple when we're not looking. :D

Shane

[Merry]

See? Now Christchild has pointed out yet another problem. Multiply? Typo's have been known to multiply like rabbits. An entire manuscript can appear clear and ready to go and yet...yet...there they sit. If one turns a light on, I wonder, will the errors scuttle away? Just an annoying situation all around.

Now, I suggest this is something God might do to keep us humble. Or then again, maybe we're just stupid.

Gumpngreen offered some very good rationale for this situation under one of my own stories in the workshop, however, a certain amount of mystery will always linger over this topic..... :eek: :eek:

[wgjones3]

Personally, I think my typo count would go down if I weren't taking pills for my back pain and I had something bigger than this 12 year old 11-inch VGA monitor (though, hopefully I'll get a 17 or 19 inch CRT for Christmas this year--I've been hinting around about itl :D ). Of course, a bigger monitor would mean I had to clean my desk off. The clutter has kind of form fitted itself to the old monitor.

[AngelAzariah]

___No I will not sucome to that book, I read the first part and I am happy. I'm very stubbern about this (ok everything). Anyways, I read one editor that said she reads the story backwards. It's funny - the errors seemed to leap out at you then. Also, I wouldn't and don't want to go over my book to meany times. Editors say you can make your work even worse by doing so. Something to do with trying to fix it to meny times. Eather way, I have a fam I get to spend time with tonight.

___You peeps be blessed,
~Locel Loon~

[wgjones3]

I'm too busy downloading instrumental Jazz off Soundclick.com right now to clean my desk. But I really should be writing. Oh, the humanity! :eek:

Uh, Merry, there was a post there. What gives???? I must have taken the wrong pills. :eek:

[Merry]

Too punchy to respond, night all... :D :D :D :D :D

[AngelAzariah]

wgjones3,
___Good thing I didn't give you my other fancy link. I have one that is full of highquality art from thousands of artists. There art is so fancy that you wish you could have your house coverd in posters of their work. I've collected about 300 so far.

[DrRita]

:( I may make a few enemies but I can't help but say . . .

If a person wants to be a writer, a person must learn spelling (adequately enough for spellcheck to catch it) and grammar. Who ever heard of a writer who couldn't put a sentence together correctly? I believe that if a wannabe writer's grammar and spelling is really that bad, an English course is a must. Strunk and White will help the mildly gramnatically challenged but how can one write well if a knowledge of the basics is missing? That's like a surgeon who decides he can go ahead and operate but is a bit fuzzy on the use of the instuments. It doesn't matter if you're writing dialoge or narrative, writing is writing and not every character is going to speak grammatically incorrect all the time. Many colleges offer adult classes on English, writing and composition. There's really no excuse for a writer not to be the best he or she can which includes learning skills missed in school. There are books, tutors, friends--lots of help if one wants. I don't think it's necessary to take classes to learn to write creatively but I do think one may need to take classes to learn to write correctly. Editors are not going to overlook bad writing skills any more than they will overlook bad writing.

DrRita steps down from her soap box, trips, sprawlinging headlong onto the floor. :o Having sufficently humiliated herself, she slithers into her office and picks up the copy of Strunk and White she has been reviewing.

[DrRita]

Well DrRita, that's a little harsh wouldn't you say? You seem a bit arrogant about the whole thing. I mean after all, you could have worded it with a little more love and kindness. :mad:

[DrRita]

:( :( :( :(

[AngelAzariah]

DrRita,
___Who were you directing all that at? I didn't see a name. If it was me I have some simple replys... if not - ignore this post.
___I hated reading a writing my whole life pritty much. I was beaten for not being able to read when I was little. I only luarned how to read because of RPG games like Final Fantecy. Much of my spelling was luarned from talking to people online for years. I didn't even get past 8th gread. However, I made a B in language when I tried for my GED. I never went back to finnish the rest. If you speak with Gump, he will tell you how much I have improved. I've luarned a lot over the past year alone. I have spellchecker running all the time in Word. I'm basicly handycapt, suffering from a complex pain syndrom, and misc. mentle problems. I am not mad at you in any ways - just giving the facts.
___My wife loves my work and I write mainly to entertain her (and keep myself from feeling compleatly useless). Still, I don't really care about my spelling online. I'm way to busy working on my books to bother spellchecking my net posts.
___Again, if your posts were not amid at me, just ignore this post please. If it was, I hope this helps you understand why I type the way I do online. :p

[wgjones3]

Well DrRita, that's a little harsh wouldn't you say? You seem a bit arrogant about the whole thing. I mean after all, you could have worded it with a little more love and kindness. :mad:

DrRita--I'm really confused about why this post and the one follwoing it is there. If you're not happy with a post, you do have the option of editing. !thumbsup! No need to be down on yourself like this. For the record, I don't think you were being mean or harsh. I've heard the same thing from editors before. You're right in what you say, that there is no excuse for not learning the proper use of the language. I had just made the comment this weekend to somebody who was talking about the whole negative reaction on the WORLDview site about the stories being criticized the way they were--I know that as Christians many of us feel called by God to write, but at the same time, there comes a period in that calling where we must learn the craft. A person who has never read the Bible but has come to know Christ through an evangelistic outreach may very well be called by God to pastor a church, but that person should never be allowed to fulfill that calling until they've shown themselves approved of it. Likewise with writers--however, in keeping with the original intent of this post, I must say that the writings I've seen on this site show me that the writers here do have some understanding of the craft. Truly, the worst problems I've found in the writing I've seen in the workshops here has been things like comma splices and pronoun usage, which is why I recommend The Elements of Style so highly. In fact, I think I need to re-read it myself. :)

Angel--I don't think she's referring to anybody but simply pointing out the fact that editors, as a rule, won't work with writers who make a lot of mistakes. They just don't have time. That said, we as writers can't afford to leave it to computer programs or friends to find and fix the mistakes that get submissions rejected (my girlfriend is the worst--I swear, I could smear mud on a piece of paper and tell her it was something I'd just written and she'd think it was a nobel prize winning essay). Personally, I beat myself up everytime I look at submissions I sent off that got rejected because I always feel there's something I could have done better to make the piece stronger. :( But, that's life. I can't offer any excuses because I really don't have any. My writing is what it is. I think that's all any of us can say.

Why don't we all just have a great big group hug? !thumbsup!

[AngelAzariah]

___I did say if she isn't talking to me, just to ignore me. :D I am trying to luarn things too... but I can only do so much at this time.

[DrRita]

My dear friends,
Post not aimed at anyone. Angel, I sympathize with you. My youngest son (now 26) spells horribly. I have a beef with the school system for much of what the younger people have not learned. Anyway, that's another rant. I do think, however, that we need not be "killed by grammar" as this thread is titled. It's not as if there is not help and hope. Books are great but many people do not learn by reading, they have to in a class or have hands on teaching. I think the best encouragement we can give someone is hope. ;)

Angel, you may have been the victim of horrible abuse and it has done a work on you. You may suffer from things I don't understand. I did not know you before I came online and in no way would belittle or demean you. I am sure as you keep stepping out in faith, God will continue to keep you growing and improving. :)

Bill, I am still learning everyone here. I belong to another non-Christian forum where everyone speaks their mind and is brutally honest. It took me quite a while to feel comfortable enough to say what I thought and I guess this post is my way of "testing" the temperature of the water here. I must say, ya'll are much kinder than the folks at the other forum. I am glad I can be me. :cool:

[wgjones3]

Don't worry about having to mask yourself or walk on eggshells here--I'm sure Bekka would agree when I say that we don't ever want to see outright hostility here in the form of flames and such, but there's nothing wrong with speaking your mind, especially when it comes to writing.

I have had a very hard time in the past trying to say what I mean to say and it usually comes out wrong if I'm frustrated or angry--and usually I'm frustrated and angry because of stuff that has nothing to do with the post I'm making. I think all of us get to that point. But don't feel like you can't be yourself. !thumbsup! We're all friends here, and friends accept each other even if they don't agree with them.

[AngelAzariah]

DrRita,
___By all means, be yourself. :D I thought you may be aming that derictly at me. I have a deep hate for public schools, and I felt my integrity may be underfire. Nothing like telling an ant that they sit around and do nothing right. :p Anyways, I agree with what you send in the way that I think you ment it now... if you meant it that way. :D

[FireFeet]

All you need to become a master of grammar and spelling is a wretched vile woman who taught you English in both tenth and twelfth grade. A woman who counted homework as 50% of your grade and assigned two hours worth of it every night and twice that much on the weekends. A woman who would rip up your homework and tell you that it was so bad that she wouldn't even count it as completed homework. A woman who would scream at you in the classroom and call you encouraging things like "hopelessly stupid." A woman who threatened to keep you from attending your high school graduation unless you could achieve a score of 95% of your senior thesis.

[Merry]

Hey, what'd I tell you about picking on my mother? :D :D :D

[DrRita]

Does anyone here know how to diagram sentences?? Well, I don't know if the practice is used anymore but I spent my whole seventh grade diagraming sentences. My seventh grade teacher wasn't mean (that would be my 6th grade teacher) just very strict and when we did wrong, we got swats with a big paddle. (They still used capital punishment back then.) All through my grade school years, English was drilled, drummed, beaten and stuffed into us. I'm not sure how it is nowadays, but I don't believe the public school system teaches adequate English today. Firefeet, I'm sorry about the humiliation you went through, but perhaps she was taking her frustration over the inadequate teaching out on the students. I not trying to excuse her demeaning behavior but by 10th grade in many public schools, the average student still can't compose a decent essay. But the blessing is you know grammar. But you can say as Joseph did when he revealed himself to his brothers," What you intended for evil, God meant for good . . "

Merry,
Do you teach in a Christian private school? How is your school set up? I'm curious if you have teachers for each subject or if you use one of the accelerated programes such as A.C.E.

[Gumpngreen]

Capital punishment...?

"Little Rita, you misplaced that comma, so... OFF WITH YOUR HEAD!!"

:D

I know you meant "corporal".

[Merry]

No, no Gump, it's capital punishment...at least when I'm there...muh-hah-hah!
Evil, mean, teacher that I am. :( :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Dr. Rita,

I know and love the act of diagraming sentences. The whole function of language is just amazing! That being said, I still screw it up as much as the next guy, nonetheless, it's cool!

We are an ACSI accredited school and we use different curriculums to get the job done. Beka is our primary set, but we also use A.C.E. mainly to catch up the number of students who come here under the McKay scholarship. (In Florida, if you do poorly in public school, they'll give you a voucher to go to the private school of your choice. So we have a number of kids on several different levels...6th graders who read like 1st graders, etc..and sadly/gladly we see more like them every year. Just one more chance to teach the Bible.... :D ) The PACE curriculumn is so individualized, its exaclty what we need for those guys. The high school also incorporates Bob Jones language and Spanish I.

[DrRita]

Gump,
I'm comma challenged. :(

Merry,
We are hoping to start a school next year and have signed with A.C.E. to use their curriculum. We are very excited about it and also hope to get it approved to use in India in the future. We want to open a school there, one that is approved by the Indian government. We need much prayer on that one as it's Christian based and the Indian Government is very anti-Christian. But that can change!

I was just thinking maybe some of the PACEs in English could be used to help writers learn the basics for grammar, spelling etc. I've been to the supervisor's training but we haven't actually used the curriculum yet. Just a thought. :rolleyes:

[Merry]

Sure, PACE is great for individual training. It drives some folks crazy because of the way its set-up...ie..the repetition of concepts. But then again, putting the point across again and again is rather what you need..............I think it's perfect for home school and Christian education, because, like I said, you can let people work at their level and go ahead as quickly or, ahem, slowly, as needed.

[FireFeet]

CAPITAL punishment? Hrmm...pun intended? :D

[Merry]

:D :D Kee-heee-hee.... :D

[FireFeet]

You shall be

lambasted with an L!

bludgeoned with a B!

pummeled with a P!

flogged with an F!

thrashed with a T!

hammered with an H!

whipped with a W!

battered with a B!

lashed with an L!

walloped with a W!

:D

[Merry]

You've been drinking coffee again, right FireFeet?

[FireFeet]

I just noticed that the name of this thread is KILLED By Grammar. It seems to have circled around to an appropriate place. :D

Coffee? Oy Vey! There's a coffee bar right next door to the office where I'm now working...I've had to add Coffee to my weekly budget. :D

[wgjones3]

Our church just had a $5000 expresso/capachino machine donated to it. The idea is to give people a place to gather after work on Wednesdays so they can sip coffee and chat with friends. Somehow, I see this turning Wednesday night service into one of those shouting, running around the sanctuary services. :D

[AngelAzariah]

___I've seen those - the coffie was the problem eh? I see now the error of my previus assumtion. I thoght they were having one of them pozzetion things like on natinal geographic. (full jokes intended - this post is not a serius one)

[Merry]

Gosh, she said, whistfully. It might be fun to live in a city with a Christian night club or coffee house..... :D

[wgjones3]

I've been wanting to do something like that for a while. We do have a Christian owned coffee house with live music and such, but they close at 8:30. :( I'd like to see something that's open 'till 1 or 2 a.m. with fine food, alcohol-free drinks, slamming Christian music, and something for believers and non-believers alike (pool tables, basketball, batting cages, laser tag, dancing, slot cars, video games, miniature golf). Actually, there's a city about an hour from here that's a college town big enough to support something like that (when I first stared college, there was a place kinda like that up there that me and my buds from church hit every weekend--sometimes Friday and Saturday. It kinda lost a bunch of money and they changed it though.

[Merry]

Closes at 8:30? Yikes!

It would be so cool to have something like you described. I've wanted to do something like that for ages, too, but in my town, you say 'Christian Night Club,' and some might dowse you with holy water and hang garlic around your neck. Sigh... :eek:

[AngelAzariah]

___I had a white rat... no-no that's way off topic. I just wanted to say that I wanted to start something like that in my younger days. I just never (and still don't) had the cash for it. Not to mention, most christian children that I knew only went to church to pick up their next bed buddy. Sad, but true. This topic is starting to get down in the... well it bites for now. What happened to all the smiles I used to see around here? I keep seeing this :( :( :( :( - why?
FATHER: This is supposed to be a happy occasion!
Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who. We are here today to
witness the union of two young people in the joyful bond of the holy
wedlock. Unfortunately, one of them, my son Herbert, has just fallen
to his death. But I think I've not lost a son, so much as... gained
a daughter! For, since the tragic death of her father--
RANDOM: He's not quite dead!
FATHER: Since the near fatal wounding of her father--
RANDOM: He's getting better!
FATHER: For, since her own father... who, when he seemed about to
recover, suddenly felt the icy hand of death upon him,...
[ugh]
RANDOM: Oh, he's died!
FATHER: And I want his only daughter to look upon me... as her own
dad -- in a very real, and legally binding sense.
[clapping]
And I feel sure that the merger -- uh, the union -- between the
Princess and the brave, but dangerous, Sir Launcelot of Camelot...
LAUNCELOT: What?
RANDOM: Look! The dead Prince!
CONCORDE: He's not quite dead!
HERBERT: Oh, I feel much better.
FATHER: You fell out of the tower, you creep!
HERBERT: No, I was saved at the last minute.
FATHER: How?!
HERBERT: Well, I'll tell you...
[music]
FATHER: Not like that! Not like that! No, stop it!
SINGING: He's going to tell! He's going to tell!
FATHER: Shut up!
SINGING: He's going to tell! He's going to tell!
He's going to tell! He's going to tell!
He's going to tell! He's going to tell!
He's going to tell! He's going to tell!

[FireFeet]

FireFeet groans.

:D

[Merry]

:D :D :D :D But it's just FUNNY.... :D :D :D :D

[AngelAzariah]

___Will you just look at them smiles. :D

[femi@singlesaff]

focus on the writings that you do easily, later you will grow in the rest.

what i do is type my books and give printed copies to friends to check out the grammers for me. i believe there people out there that will be willing to do it for you.

femi fasanya