The Biggest Lie Among Christians: "God Won't Give You More Than You Can Handle"

[Jeff Pate]

The Biggest Lie Among Christians: God Won't Give You More Than You Can Handle"

A few years ago, I was involved in a men's Bible study and one of the guys was going through marital troubles. His wife had left him, taking their two children, and needless to say, he was struggling with it. After revealing this to the group, a few told our friend that they would be praying for him and his wife, and then another guy spoke up and said, "You know God won't give you more than you can handle." He may have even included another of the biggest lies among Christians: "Everything happens for a reason."

As my blood pressure rose and a righteous anger built inside me, I watched the other men's reactions only to see them nodding and saying, "Yes, brother. That's true."

It took all the strength of Christ in me to hold my peace and not walk over to that guy and kick him in the groin, first for His character assassination of God, and then for his irresponsible words that could cause our friend to passively submit to what was happening in his life as being "the will of God." However, exercising patience comes through understanding, and I understood that this guy was just trying to help and comfort our friend, and he could only tap in to what he'd been taught in the past--however erroneous and perverted it was.

Later the same night, I sent two emails: one to my hurting friend to tell him that God was not the author of his problems, but the solution, and that Jesus said, I have spoken these things to you that in me you might have peace. In the world you shall tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world. [John 16:33]

The second email I sent to the guy who made the statement, "God won't give you more than you can handle." I referred to his statement and asked where in the Scripture could this be found--either as a direct teaching or even in inference. Even though I gave him grace the night before, I believe that grace doesn't necessarily come without correction or at least challenging him in private. I went to him privately as the Lord taught.

I already knew what verse he was going to give, but I wanted to wait for his response. The next day, he emailed me back and told me exactly what I'd thought... he was quoting from 1 Corinthians 10:13 that says: No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it. (NIV)

I'll ask you the same question as I asked him: Where in this passage does it say that "God won't give you more than you can handle"? Where does it even infer that God is the "giver" or source of our temptations or troubles?

Sadly, I list this ever-so-frequent interpretation of this passage of Scripture in the Book of Perversions. In fact, it's listed in verse 2 after, "God only helps those who help themselves" and immediately before, "Everything happens for a reason."

The reason the interpretation is a perversion because one part has been conveniently plucked from the middle of the entire thought God was trying to convey through Paul. Yes, it's true that God won't let you to be tempted beyond what you can bear but this does not mean that God is the source of the temptation.

Because they have been taught that God is sovereign, many Christians think our Father is the source of all their troubles and suffering. They think He uses those problems as tools to teach them something or change their behavior, even though the Word clearly proves the opposite: Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God. For God cannot be tempted with evil, neither does he tempt any man. [James 1:13]

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God.

Let's look again at the complete thought... first of all, in verse 12, the Lord gives us a warning to be careful if we think we stand lest we should fall. Standing in Christ, we can do all things, so the Lord is not talking about our standing as Christians, but about us standing up to temptation in our flesh, that we must be careful NOT to think we are above succumbing to temptation, lest we are filled with pride and fall. In fact, he refers back to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and that we should learn from them--that those things were written to give us examples and for our own correction (v. 11).

Then the word of God speaks to us according to who we are in Christ, that NO temptation that has taken or seized you except what is common to man. There are no "special" temptations for us, that would be more tempting than what anyone else faces. All temptations are common to man in the sense that temptation falls into one of three categories: the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. [1 John 2:16] Therefore, at its core, each temptation we face is founded in either of these three principles.

So then, every temptation we face is common, and then the word of God says, But God is faithful... speaking in direct contrast to temptation and also to our flesh that is not faithful, who will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

God is faithful to what....? He is faithful to provide you a way out of temptation so that you can stand up under it. The Lord just said, No temptation has seized you except as is common to man. Therefore, there is no temptation in this world that God hasn't already provided the remedy for, so that we would be completely victorious over. This is what the Lord wants to emphasize.... that regardless of what comes your way, God is faithful to His word... that every word of God has power to accomplish anything in this world, and He will even hasten His word to perform it (Jeremiah 1:12). The Lord spoke this very thing to Paul, My grace is sufficient for you. [2 Corinthians 12:9]

Do you remember what Jesus said, A kingdom divided against itself shall not stand. [Mark 3:24] Believing God is not only the author of our problems, but also the solution puts God at odds with Himself. We do have an enemy who attacks us, but he is no where near as faithful and accurate as he has been portrayed. It is far too often our own mistakes and lusts that get us into trouble. But yet, God who is rich in mercy wherewith He has loved us, still gives us the remedy and victory that is in Christ.

This is what this passage is teaching... that Jesus did not die and rise again to give us His Spirit so that we could only "cope" and struggle through this life, but for us to be victorious over any and all temptations, trials, and the like. It is because of perversion of this verse along with others that has hindered and destroyed God's people. My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. [Hosea 4:6]

I know of multitudes of people who have and had what the doctors call "terminal illnesses" like cancer, etc. and they have failed to see healing and died because they had been taught that "everything happens for a reason" and that "God won't give you more than you can handle." They have, as the word of God teaches, not correctly discerned Jesus' body that was given for healing of ALL sickness and disease (1 Corinthians 11:23-34).

Thereby, they submit to sickness, disease, poverty, divorce, tragedy as if it is God's will for these things to happen, or that God is doing things like healing and restoration on "His timetable," which means most of the time when you get to heaven. Does the Scripture not say, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. [2 Corinthians 6:2]

We are no longer waiting on the Lord's appearance in this world, my brothers and sisters. He has come in the fullness of power that is in God. Our waiting now is likened to a servant who is "waiting" on dinner guests. He is active in serving them, not "waiting" for something to happen. When you wait or actively serve the LORD, you shall renew your strength, and mount up with wings as eagles (Isaiah 40:31).

The kingdom of God that Jesus commanded His disciples to preach, which included heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons; freely you have received, freely give. [Matthew 10:7-8] did not profit those who sat by the wayside waiting for the water to move (John 5:3). The impotent and sick ones remained in their case because they were "waiting" on God to move instead of understanding that God isn't the one who is stuck. He has already moved through Jesus and now it is our time to move and press through the crowd of unbelief to touch the hem of Jesus' garment, and as many as touched him were made whole. [Mark 6:56]

Brothers and sisters, I love you all, and want so deeply for to receive the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Jesus our Lord, the eyes of your understanding being enlightened, that you may know what is the hope of his calling, and what are the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of his power toward us who believe according to the working of his mighty power, which he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come, and has put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him that fills all in all. [Ephesians 1:17-23]

May you have ears to hear, and eyes to see what the Lord is saying through me...

Jeff Pate is founder of Branches of the Vine Ministries (http://www.bovministries.net), a discipleship ministry emphasizing the message of God's unconditional love and grace that is in Jesus Christ.

[gardengirl333]

While I agree with a good part of your assessment, your statement, "Thereby, they submit to sickness, disease, poverty, divorce, tragedy as if it is God's will for these things to happen, or that God is doing things like healing and restoration on "His timetable," which means most of the time when you get to heaven. Does the Scripture not say, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. [2 Corinthians 6:2]" completely rerouted the point you were trying to make and implied that no one has to get sick, no one has to be poor, no one has to have tragedy. That little rabbit trail doesn't jibe with my study of the scripture, and that verse, in particular. 2 Cor. 6:2 refers to the previous verse's charge to not take the grace of God in vain. In my Greek study, grace implies "the divine influence on the heart and it's reflection in the life." What Paul is saying is that grace is evidence of God's presence and character in our lives through Jesus Christ. If you look at earlier verses in chapter 5, he even talks about the groans & sufferings of this life. This does not imply that the grace of God is healing, freedom from suffering, etc.

It seems to me that Paul himself, if I'm reading you correctly, must have been one of those people who needlessly submitted to difficulties like suffering (whatever his thorn was, he asked God to take it away...and God didn't). Joseph submitted to ill treatment at the hands of his brothers and his master, then? Good old Job submitted to catastrophic loss? Your statement implies that these things are avoidable and I submit to you that they are NOT. It is the relationship that we have with Jesus in the midst of tribulations that makes His grace known. Waiting on God is not a bad thing when that waiting brings evidence of His character in our lives.

[Xenia]

Jesus said that among those born of women there was not a greater prophet than John the Baptist.

John had his head cut off!

...Selah

[kshsj777]

I agree that the statement that "God can't give you more than you can handle" is false. The reason why is because we have to depend on God to give us grace and strength to get through the trials. We aren't able to handle these trials in and of ourselves. We have to trust God instead.

However, I do believe that everything that happens, happens for a reason. God may not be the source of our trials, but He is in control of everything, He is Sovereign (He would not be God if He wasn't) and He does allow bad things to happen.

James 1:2-3 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4 And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

Romans 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

The verse says ALL things; that would include bad things. I also agree with gardengirl333 and Xenia in their posts.

[Russ~Anna Lee]

Just a quick note...I asked to be healed...I have been...I have even been brought back from physical death...but I have not been healed of all things...I have been told it was lack of faith...but surely the person making the statement had enough faith to make me well...I had no faith at all when I was dead...Either God is all knowing and has a plan for my life...with good and bad...or He Doesn't

[gardengirl333]

I agree, kshsj777 & Russ~Anna Lee. God is awesome and we can trust Him for everything, even the FAITH we need.

[kshsj777]

Oops! Sorry gardengirl333. Lonecheetah has the same avatar you do, so I got you two confused. I edited my post now.

[Russ~Anna Lee]

GardenGirl333....Off subject...may I ask what 333 is for?

[kshsj777]

Maybe for the Trinity? A triple three? After all my 777 represents God's number and His triune nature.

[srussell]

Because they have been taught that God is sovereign, many Christians think our Father is the source of all their troubles and suffering. They think He uses those problems as tools to teach them something or change their behavior, even though the Word clearly proves the opposite: Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God. For God cannot be tempted with evil, neither does he tempt any man. [James 1:13]

You have taken this verse out of context. James is talking about the temptation to sin. He is not talking about about trials and tribulations that happen in our lives.


Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
James 1:2-4

You are right by asserting that God does not tempt us to sin. But if it means fixing our character, making us more holy, there is no reason why He wouldn't choose to give us a trial or to make us uncomfortable to make us more like Him.

I'm not saying that every time something bad happens that it's from God. It could be a natural consequence of our sin or of someone else's sin. Tell a Christian father in Darfur that his daughter was stolen and made slave because he "submitted to...tragedy." Are you saying that he would get her back if only he had enough faith?

Please consider the ramification of your words. They could easily be misconstrued to say that all the bad things that happen to us would go away if only we did x, y, or z. If I am not understanding you correctly, by all means reply to this post and clarify yourself. But please, use scripture correctly. Do not pull verses out of context. Use the meaning for which they were intended.

Regards,

Sam

[kshsj777]

I agree, srussel. Good post.

[JayBee]

nothing can happen without Gods say so. He set the stars in place and mapped out their courses. you can only turn left if Hes put a left turn there.
Everything God made was perfect. Everything He does is for a purpose.

God is eternal with no begginning and no end, kind of like a circle so if we try to fathom Him we go round in circles.

[Jeff Pate]

This is a follow-up to my recent BLOG entitled, THE BIGGEST LIE AMONG CHRISTIANS. I received a few emails asking for clarification on some of the points I made, so I want to do so. I'll try to answer/respond personally to those whose replies suggested such.

Some people mentioned Job and Paul's thorn in the flesh, and one question was asked if I was saying that God WAS the source of all our problems... I'm sure at least some of these things crossed your mind, so I hope this helps...

And please do this... ask yourself what message glorifies, esteems, values, magnifies the Lord Jesus, and what He has done--what I teach, or what others teach that seem to be in conflict with this. Let us remember that the Spirit of God's ministry is to testify and glorify Jesus (John 15:26; John 16:14).

No, I do not believe God gives us anything negative as in the context of what I was sharing. As Jesus said that He is the one who takes away our burdens and gives us rest. His yoke is easy and light (Matthew 11:28-30).

What comes across our path is NOTHING in comparison to the power that resides within us, and He would be unjust to not give us the ability, but yet hold us accountable.

I do believe that a person would drown in their burdens if they did not seek God's deliverance. God does not arbitrarily intervene in a person's life without their cooperation. In effect, the Lord's hands would be tied, and through unbelief, a person would "limit the Holy One of Israel" (Psalm 78:41). The town of Nazareth rejected Jesus and because of their unbelief, He COULD NOT do any mighty works there (Mark 6:5-6). I see this happen all the time with fear, depression, sickness, untimely death, etc.

What I'm teaching in this BLOG is that while "bad things" like sickness, divorce, tragedy, etc. happen to us either of our own ignorance, rebellion, or as a result of a demonic attack, God is NOT the one who "gives us" these things.

The word of God says, Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variableness neither shadow of turning, of his own will he begat us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. [James 1:16-18]

This passage is included in the entire context of what the Lord is teaching, that although it refers to temptation to sin, it also includes ALL tribulations the Lord said we would have for the sake of the gospel. Otherwise, why would the Lord instruct us to to count it all joy to fall into temptations? Certainly the Lord doesn't want us to be joyful when we fall into temptation to sin, but rather we count it joy when we are persecuted, rejected, mocked, and suffer at the hands of people for the name of Jesus.

Some of you may quickly refer to the passage of Scripture that talks about God's chastening or correction of us, and I want to assert that God's preferred method of correction of His children is through His Word, as you can see from the passage in 1 Corinthians 10, that what was written about the children of Israel was given for OUR learning and admonition, and that the Scripture is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. [2 Timothy 3:15-17]

The common emphasis on the passage from 1 Corinthians 10 is on God's allowance of temptation, while the true emphasis is on how God has made us through Christ to be more than conquerors in any and all situations we face. This is why taking the part out of context is incorrect, (while true as in the case of Job and Paul's demonic attacks) because as Jesus said, These things I have spoken to you that in me you might have peace. In the world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world. [John 16:33]

Was the Lord emphasizing all the trouble we would have, or was He saying that in spite of all the trouble we may have, that we would have peace and be overcomers through Him? With my whole heart I believe He wants us to emphasize the latter--for this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith. [1 John 5:4] And this faith is not simply an assertion of belief, but an active dynamic life that empowers us to live in the newness of life and in the likeness of His resurrection...(Romans 6:4-5) begotten of God and overcomers of the world, a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

The moment we cease trying to be victorious in our own strength, the Lord's power is activated, which is why when a person is failing to walk in love, patience, health, peace, joy, and all the fruit of the Spirit, they can know that they are NOT tapping into what God has given us through Jesus and His Spirit. The Lord said, My grace is sufficient for you, for my strength is made perfect in weakness. [2 Corinthians 12:9]

The Lord's strength is made perfect without any assistance of our own strength, and this is what the Lord was teaching Paul, who had been trying to get rid of something (persecution) of which he had not been redeemed, and his efforts were being made in his own power, and by his own admission, that by surrendering his own power, he knew the power of Christ rested upon him. (You may read my teaching The Truth About Paul's Thorn in the Flesh (http://www.bovministries.net/Pauls_Thorn_in_the_Flesh.html) for more about this subject)

This is not a criticism of anyone's personal situation, but sadly, many have been taught to identify themselves more with Job instead of with the Lord Jesus, who is our TRUE example. This happens especially when the promises of God have not manifested themselves, and because of unbelief, they conclude that God is "allowing the devil to torment them" for some redemptive or refining purpose. It's funny that Jesus never mentioned this in all His dealings with sick and demon-possessed people. You would think that at least one would have been a candidate for this kind of refinement or character development.

I had one pastor tell me, "I feel like Job because of all the trouble I'm having!" And I said, "Well, why don't you quit feeling you're like Job and believe you're like Jesus?" It's convenient to identify with Job because the way it is taught, that Satan is just God's messenger boy, and when God is finished with you, He'll call off Satan's dogs.

This is NOT the message of the New Testament. It is up to us who are in Christ to be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might [Ephesians 6:10]; and for us (in Christ) to resist the devil, and he will flee from you (not from God) [James 4:7]; and for us (in Christ) to stand against the wiles of the devil [Ephesians 6:11]; and for us (in Christ) to not give place to the devil [Ephesians 4:27]; and for us (in Christ) to not be ignorant of his devices. [2 Corinthians 2:11]

Do you see what I mean? God through Jesus has given us the power to be more than conquerors, that God is able to do exceeding abundantly above all we ask or think, but this ability is tied to or according to the power that is working IN US. [Ephesians 3:20]

The Lord's words are clear: "My grace is sufficient for you! What I have given you is more than enough to take care of any problem, to access ALL of the promises, all of our inheritance in Christ."

Jesus is enough! So let us get our thumbs out of our mouths and grow up and walk in what Jesus died and rose again to give us, and share the kingdom with the rest of the world.

This is what I'm talking about as it comes to these perversions of God's word... the immature ones in Christ are led astray by wolves in sheep's clothing and then by their devilish ways, they infect others with the same poison.

[kshsj777]

This is a follow-up to my recent BLOG entitled, THE BIGGEST LIE AMONG CHRISTIANS. I received a few emails asking for clarification on some of the points I made, so I want to do so. I'll try to answer/respond personally to those whose replies suggested such.

Some people mentioned Job and Paul's thorn in the flesh, and one question was asked if I was saying that God WAS the source of all our problems... I'm sure at least some of these things crossed your mind, so I hope this helps...

And please do this... ask yourself what message glorifies, esteems, values, magnifies the Lord Jesus, and what He has done--what I teach, or what others teach that seem to be in conflict with this. Let us remember that the Spirit of God's ministry is to testify and glorify Jesus (John 15:26; John 16:14).

A person who trusts God that He knows what is best for them, and a God who can use horrible circumstances for good brings Him the most glory.

Romans 8:28
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.



No, I do not believe God gives us anything negative as in the context of what I was sharing. As Jesus said that He is the one who takes away our burdens and gives us rest. His yoke is easy and light (Matthew 11:28-30).

What comes across our path is NOTHING in comparison to the power that resides within us, and He would be unjust to not give us the ability, but yet hold us accountable.

God does not promise to take away our problems. He promises grace to get through it. God has NOT given us the power to get rid of our sicknesses and diseases. The verse you quote is referring to freedom from sin.

Remember the Jews during the time of the Romans? They expected Messiah to come and liberate them from their oppression. But the Christ did not come to deliver them from the Romans. He came to deliver them from what they really needed to be delivered from: sin.


I do believe that a person would drown in their burdens if they did not seek God's deliverance. God does not arbitrarily intervene in a person's life without their cooperation.

God does what He wants. Psalm 115:3 “But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.”

Not only does He intervene in people's lives without their cooperation, (Boy if He didn't, there wouldn't be a single soul on this Earth that would be saved) He is routinely involved in every minute aspect of everyone's lives. He has complete control of every single atom. If He didn't He wouldn't be God. He would be irresponsible to make something and not retain control of it.

Yes, we have freewill. But God is also completely Sovereign. The Scriptures teach both, so I believe both. End of discussion.


In effect, the Lord's hands would be tied, and through unbelief, a person would "limit the Holy One of Israel" (Psalm 78:41). The town of Nazareth rejected Jesus and because of their unbelief, He COULD NOT do any mighty works there (Mark 6:5-6). I see this happen all the time with fear, depression, sickness, untimely death, etc.

What I'm teaching in this BLOG is that while "bad things" like sickness, divorce, tragedy, etc. happen to us either of our own ignorance, rebellion, or as a result of a demonic attack, God is NOT the one who "gives us" these things.

I'm sorry, but that is NOT true. There are some things that God allows to happen "to produce endurance" as it says in James. I was born three months early and my lungs were not fully developed. I could not breathe on my own and there were many times when I almost died. Are you telling me that happened, an entire year of my parents wondering whether I was going to live or die, because of my ignorance or rebellion or demonic attack? No.

I do not understand every reason why it happened, but I know some of them.

1)It brought my parents to the Lord. They started taking their faith seriously. They started trusting God. It wasn't until they surrendered to Him and His will that I started getting better. True, that didn't mean God had to heal me just because they started to trust Him, that's not what I mean.

2)God used this to get my grandparents involved in a church, a church that had just burned down and my grandpa being a carpenter helped to rebuild it and got involved in a local church again

3)It is has touched so many people who have heard what happened

4)My dad decided to go into the ministry and become a pastor.

5)It has affected me. I'm hearing impaired. There is nothing I can do about it. I accept it because that's the way it is. God is going to use me through my impairment in some great way, and I don't mean to be prideful when I say that. But I feel this huge burden on me to change the world. I would not be the same person I was today, if I hadn't been born so early and lost my hearing.

I'm GLAD I'm hearing impaired. I AM GLAD!!! Though it is frustrating at times, I know there is a reason. I know that it will worth it all. I know something good has come and will come from it. My faith in God is so much stronger.



The word of God says, Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variableness neither shadow of turning, of his own will he begat us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. [James 1:16-18]

Yes, all good things come from God. Listen, God lets bad things happen for a reason. Since He is Sovereign, omnipotent and good, He only lets bad things happen to His children if those things produce good results. Like the refining of gold. He wants to wipe away all our impurities, teach us to depend on Him for everything. Like a saying goes, “You never know that Jesus is all you need, until Jesus is all you have.” God will do what is necessary to purify His children. If that involves letting something “bad” happen, then so be it.


This passage is included in the entire context of what the Lord is teaching, that although it refers to temptation to sin, it also includes ALL tribulations the Lord said we would have for the sake of the gospel. Otherwise, why would the Lord instruct us to to count it all joy to fall into temptations? Certainly the Lord doesn't want us to be joyful when we fall into temptation to sin, but rather we count it joy when we are persecuted, rejected, mocked, and suffer at the hands of people for the name of Jesus.

The joy James is referring to, is the joy in God, the joy in knowing that these things DO have a reason.

Which is better? A person that believes that all these problems are his fault and that he could just be rid of them if he had enough faith or believed he had enough power?

Or a person that recognizes that these are happening for a good reason, that all these problems amount to something, that they have a purpose, will make him better for God's kingdom, will draw him close to God and teach him to trust Him?

James 1: 2-4
Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.


Some of you may quickly refer to the passage of Scripture that talks about God's chastening or correction of us, and I want to assert that God's preferred method of correction of His children is through His Word, as you can see from the passage in 1 Corinthians 10, that what was written about the children of Israel was given for OUR learning and admonition, and that the Scripture is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. [2 Timothy 3:15-17]

Why can't God's chastening refer to problems in our lives? Not all problems are a result of sin, but some are. Yes, God uses His Word, but what prevents Him from using circumstances in our lives?

Hebrews 12: 7–11

7Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. 11No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.


The common emphasis on the passage from 1 Corinthians 10 is on God's allowance of temptation, while the true emphasis is on how God has made us through Christ to be more than conquerors in any and all situations we face. This is why taking the part out of context is incorrect, (while true as in the case of Job and Paul's demonic attacks) because as Jesus said, These things I have spoken to you that in me you might have peace. In the world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world. [John 16:33]

Was the Lord emphasizing all the trouble we would have, or was He saying that in spite of all the trouble we may have, that we would have peace and be overcomers through Him? With my whole heart I believe He wants us to emphasize the latter--for this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith. [1 John 5:4] And this faith is not simply an assertion of belief, but an active dynamic life that empowers us to live in the newness of life and in the likeness of His resurrection...(Romans 6:4-5) begotten of God and overcomers of the world, a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.



We do overcome the world. But that doesn't mean we never have any problems in our lives. We overcome sin, and we overcome death.


The moment we cease trying to be victorious in our own strength, the Lord's power is activated, which is why when a person is failing to walk in love, patience, health, peace, joy, and all the fruit of the Spirit, they can know that they are NOT tapping into what God has given us through Jesus and His Spirit. The Lord said, My grace is sufficient for you, for my strength is made perfect in weakness. [2 Corinthians 12:9]

“Health” is NOT a fruit of the Spirit.

Galations 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.


The Lord's strength is made perfect without any assistance of our own strength, and this is what the Lord was teaching Paul, who had been trying to get rid of something (persecution) of which he had not been redeemed, and his efforts were being made in his own power, and by his own admission, that by surrendering his own power, he knew the power of Christ rested upon him. (You may read my teaching The Truth About Paul's Thorn in the Flesh (http://www.bovministries.net/Pauls_Thorn_in_the_Flesh.html) for more about this subject)

2 Corinthian 12: 7-10

7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong. [/QUOTE]

No, you are not correct. Paul was not trying to get rid of it under his own power. The text says “three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me.” It doesn't give any hint he was trying to do things on his own. Instead he was going to God in prayer. In this case, God answered his prayer with a “No.” He told Paul: “My grace is sufficient for you.” That means God choose not to remove the problem. Instead God was giving Paul the means to get through it.



This is not a criticism of anyone's personal situation, but sadly, many have been taught to identify themselves more with Job instead of with the Lord Jesus, who is our TRUE example. This happens especially when the promises of God have not manifested themselves, and because of unbelief, they conclude that God is "allowing the devil to torment them" for some redemptive or refining purpose. It's funny that Jesus never mentioned this in all His dealings with sick and demon-possessed people. You would think that at least one would have been a candidate for this kind of refinement or character development.

Not a criticism? What exactly are you doing when you claim all trials are our fault? (Or the devil's?)


I had one pastor tell me, "I feel like Job because of all the trouble I'm having!" And I said, "Well, why don't you quit feeling you're like Job and believe you're like Jesus?" It's convenient to identify with Job because the way it is taught, that Satan is just God's messenger boy, and when God is finished with you, He'll call off Satan's dogs.

This is NOT the message of the New Testament. It is up to us who are in Christ to be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might [Ephesians 6:10]; and for us (in Christ) to resist the devil, and he will flee from you (not from God) [James 4:7]; and for us (in Christ) to stand against the wiles of the devil [Ephesians 6:11]; and for us (in Christ) to not give place to the devil [Ephesians 4:27]; and for us (in Christ) to not be ignorant of his devices. [2 Corinthians 2:11]



Jesus endured hardship just like Job did. He didn't conquer His problems by avoiding them, but by enduring through them. I'm not saying that if we have a problem we shouldn't try to escape it if we can. But if God decides not to remove the problem, then we expect that He will give us the grace to get through it. God isn't a magical genie that will take care of our problems for us.



Do you see what I mean? God through Jesus has given us the power to be more than conquerors, that God is able to do exceeding abundantly above all we ask or think, but this ability is tied to or according to the power that is working IN US. [Ephesians 3:20]

The Lord's words are clear: "My grace is sufficient for you! What I have given you is more than enough to take care of any problem, to access ALL of the promises, all of our inheritance in Christ."

He has not given us supernatural powers over sicknesses. He's given us power over sin. We have not received all of our inheritance yet. We haven't received our new bodies, we haven't all been healed from our sicknesses. We are still in corrupt decaying bodies. We are still in a world of sin. We have been saved, we are being saved, and our salvation will be completed at death and when the New Heavens and New Earth arrive.


Jesus is enough! So let us get our thumbs out of our mouths and grow up and walk in what Jesus died and rose again to give us, and share the kingdom with the rest of the world.

This is what I'm talking about as it comes to these perversions of God's word... the immature ones in Christ are led astray by wolves in sheep's clothing and then by their devilish ways, they infect others with the same poison.

Yes, Jesus is enough... to get us through this life until we arrive at the next. Please don't mock us and God by saying that we have the power to get rid of our troubles. That's not what the Bible teaches, and this doctrine you are teaching does not glorify God.

[kshsj777]

One more thing I want to point out. The passage in John 9. Note verse 3.

1As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth.

2And His disciples asked Him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?"

3Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

[gardengirl333]

GardenGirl333....Off subject...may I ask what 333 is for?

It's a family reminder of "I love you" -- when our son was little, if we were in a public place that was noisy or we couldn't talk out loud, we'd flash 3 fingers 3 times to each other...since I love you is 3 words and God is love and He is represented by 3 persons: Father, Son & Holy Spirit. It stuck.

[Russ~Anna Lee]

God says in Jeremiah 29:11...when He had allowed His kids to be captured into Babylon for 70 yrs...For I know the thoughts I think towards you,says the Lord. Thoughts of peace not evil,to give you a future and a hope...He allowed the captivity...I have been homeless for over 7 years...If I thought the Lord wasn't in control would have ended it yrs ago...But He has a plan and I will trust Him...I will trust He knows best...Has it been easy..Nope...it has been as close to hell sometimes as I think you can get here on earth...
We spend 7 months in a car...The first night God gave me a vision...It was of an Eagle with His wings wrapped around our car and His eyes were the color of pure gold...He watched out all around us...The Lord told me to sleep that I was not lost...He knew where I was and that I was safe...I was not in the middle of a mistake...But in the middle of Gods will for my life...God has allowed this in my life for good and not evil...

KS: You have got it going on girl!!! I am so proud of you I could just hug you 8) ((((KS))))
You have wisdom way beyond your yrs...God has blessed you...

GardenGirl: Oh how sweet!!! I knew I wanted to know...May I add something else to your 333...God had been speaking to me...But it seemed to good to be true...This plan He told me of...So one night in the truck at a truck stop I prayed most of the night asking the Lord if this was truly Him speaking to me...I woke the next morning with a truck parked next to us...On the side was Jeremiah 33:3 In full script...Call out to me and I will tell you great and hidden things you have not known...

[kshsj777]

Thank you, Russanna! I appreciate it. I was a bit worried that I sounded mean and that somebody would yell at me for what I said. But I had to say it, because it was the truth. Here's a hug right back. ((((((Russanna))))))

Good idea about the Jeremiah 33:3 meaning. It's a very good verse.

[Russ~Anna Lee]

No sweetie you did God proud...Didn't sound mean to me..He almost had me in the beginning then I went Oops 8) He needs to hear the truth...Truth is kinder than Not telling him the truth...Same with someones salvation...the truth is always kinder

I love Jeremiah 33:3 it changed my life...I went from believing God had it in for me to believing God had a plan for me and loved me...

[Laina]

Dear Jeff,

You wrote:
May you have ears to hear, and eyes to see what the Lord is saying through me...


No offense intended, but don't you think that sounds a little arrogant. I think we all want to hear what the Lord says through his word. We need to check out what anyone says with the word of God.

Some of what you say is true. But I think most of what you have to say in untrue.

There are those who will not be healed. There are those of us who will be poor our whole lives with barely able to make ends meet. Some of us will struggle with a loss of a child, or the loss of our life to a murderer, or a rapist or we may have a child in prison. Some of us will be molested by a brother or an uncle. Bad things happen, even to believers. And it won't be because of a lack of faith or because of a particular sin we've committed.

Paul's thorn did not disappear. Instead, God said his grace would be sufficient. Do you realize that all of the 12 disciples/apostles were martyred. They were killed. Christians all over the world are being killed. Some because of their faith. Early Christians were killed, thrown to the lions. Stephen was stoned by Saul.

Do you realize that Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for his frequent infirmities. Timothy was a sick man. Do you realize that the beggar at the gate beautiful was put there everyday being a cripple from birth. Jesus would have passed him every single day and never healed him. Jesus did not heal everyone he came in contact with. Epaphroditus almost died from working as a missionary.

Paul was poor. Paul had the Corinthians take up a collection for the poor Christians in Jerusalem.

You wrote:
Jesus is enough! So let us get our thumbs out of our mouths and grow up and walk in what Jesus died and rose again to give us, and share the kingdom with the rest of the world.

This is what I'm talking about as it comes to these perversions of God's word... the immature ones in Christ are led astray by wolves in sheep's clothing and then by their devilish ways, they infect others with the same poison.

There's a saying about honey drawing flies and vinegar keeping them away. Your words resemble vinegar to me and will keep people from seriously considering what you might have to say.

Here's a biblical example for you to consider, of how you might want to come across to others.

2 Timothy 2

24 The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,

25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

And from the Old Testament

Exodus 17

As the Israelites were fighting, Moses stood on a hill with the staff in his hand. As the battle continued on, Moses’ arms got tired. The Bible says, ”as long as Moses stood with his arms held high, Israel had the advantage, but when Moses’ arms grew tired, the Amelekites had the upper hand.”

Aaron and Hur got a stone so that Moses could sit upon it and they stood on each side of Moses, holding his hands high. As a result, the Israelites won the battle.

If you really love God's people and want to see them have victory in their lives, treat them with respect and care. A shepherd guides gently and doesn't beat them over the head.

Aaron and Hur could have called Moses a weakling, telling him to shape up and take the victory that is his in God - to raise those arms. But no, they loved Moses and saw the weight of the burden he was carrying.

They brought up a chair (a rock) for him to sit on and rest his weary soul and body, and Aaron and Hur each got on each side of Moses and lifted up his arms and carried the burden for him. All the weight they carried upon their own shoulder. What loving, kind and caring team work. What an example for us to follow.

I could write more, there is a lot here, but its getting late and I need to try to get some sleep.

[Russ~Anna Lee]

Jeff: I mean this with the greatest love of Jesus...I think you need to carefully read the words that have been written...Maybe it is time to go before the Lord and reasses what the Lord might be telling you...The Holy Spirit doesn't seem to agree with you...In His love Russana

[gardengirl333]

GardenGirl: Oh how sweet!!! I knew I wanted to know...May I add something else to your 333...God had been speaking to me...But it seemed to good to be true...This plan He told me of...So one night in the truck at a truck stop I prayed most of the night asking the Lord if this was truly Him speaking to me...I woke the next morning with a truck parked next to us...On the side was Jeremiah 33:3 In full script...Call out to me and I will tell you great and hidden things you have not known...

That's awesome!! Isn't it just like God to answer us when we seek him diligently? And so QUICKLY!! Well, on that note, there's only one way to close this post. "333"

[lynnmosher]

This is all I have to say...

"Consider the work of God; for who can make straight what He has made crooked? In the day of prosperity be joyful, but in the day of adversity consider: Surely God has appointed the one as well as the other, so that man can find out nothing that will come after him." Eccl 7:13-14 NKJV

[revbill]

The statement made in the title of the thread is true. God will not give you more than you can handle. Aparrently there is a misunderstanding,, God does not tempt. ... period, but He does allow us to be tempted, which started in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve. Since, for the present time Satan, The Devil, Abaddon,, Apollyon, Beelzebub, The Annointed Cherub, and Lucifer, are names, each with a different meaning, is the god of this age, (2 Cor. 4:4). "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."(Eph. 6:12)
The answer as you quoted from 1 Cor. 10:13 "No temptation has seized you except that which is common to man. And God is faithful; He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted He will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it. The key phrase in this passage being, 'He (God) will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear (handle).

[Don Watson]

I hope that everyone who reads the OP will not respond superficially. Print it out, open your Bible, be a Berean. The OP is a great tool for learning, for sorting it all out.

[Jeff Pate]

The word of God tells us to “learn” from the people in the Old Testament—not to “identify” with them. We have a much better covenant with much better promises. Let us walk in the newness of the spirit, and not the oldness of the letter.

There is a way that seems right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. [Proverbs 16:25]


I am determined to base my teachings on the TRUTH—the unchangeable Word of God, and not on phenomenon or human experience.

[Russ~Anna Lee]

That's nice... Jeff why are you so determined that what you say is the truth and not everyone that has disagreed with you??? Everyone has broken down what you said point by point from scripture and life's experience and yet you still insist you are the only one that knows TRUTH...I don't get it...Do you really want TRUTH or do you just want to be RIGHT.

I am finished with this...God Bless

[Don Watson]

Everyone hurry over to 1 Corinthians 2:1-16 where Truth is laid out for us. God's Truth can't be scattered all over the map. Bow low before what you read there, pray, invite spiritual renewal, holy insight into spiritually dividing the Word of Truth. Remain humble and convicted by God's clear instructions that the mind of man cannot comprehend the Word of God. Pray, study, then return to these forums refreshed and renewed, on fire for expressing God's Truth.

[Russ~Anna Lee]

Thank you Don I have done all that and if you read all the post I believe most of us did 8)...The Lord used each of us give scripture to what Jeff said...More than one point of view ...all different ...yet united and all the same...I truly believe that Jeff needs to read what has been put before him and then go before the Lord with it all...I believe the Holy Spirit inspired all of us to wrtite what we did...

[johnnyg67]

Wow...This has been interesting to say the least! I have read most of the post on this thread and it simply reaffirms where all of the different denominations and religious groups come from. There will always be different views on what the Bible teaches, but we have to accept first the simple truth of the gospel, then from there we grow by prayer, study, life circumstances, and our relationship with other Christians. Thus we go from babes to mature hopefully!

Does God put bad things on us (his children) or are we at fault because we have not attained the spiritual level necessary to overcome?

If we have enough faith can we avoid bad health? Financial problems? Tragedy? After all he wants us to have the abundant life correct? People need to see that we are the conquerors and that we stand above this world in that God takes care of his own...right?

With all due respect to various opinions that really sounds good, but there is one problem...the bible does not back that philosophy up anywhere when you look at the entire picture of God's word, even throughout just the New Testament. You can make a case for anything by taking bits ad peaces of scripture, but you have to ignore what happened in the life of Jesus, his disciples, and followers there after. (I'm not going to quote scripture because there has been an abundance of that and it has all been good.)

Your correct...God is not the author of evil, but evil exist and it touches everyone in one way or other. Satan wants to destroy you and I for sure, so there is no way he will leave you alone for long, especially if your doing your best to follow Jesus. However, I think the belief that we can live lives of faith strong enough to avoid certain illnesses an pitfalls is what could be called "The Biggest Lie Among Christians" It is called he "Name it and Claim it" religion where God is going to give to us because we are good enough and we deserve it! After all just look at our great faith! Our televisions are full of those kinds of "Religious" "so called Christian" shows and they have millions that blindly follow them and give to their causes. God help the ones that preach and teach such perversions of the Gospel. Its sad and honestly...it makes me mad! Now don't get Holy...Jesus got angry so I can too! :D

In my lifetime I have seen my brother murdered, my sister has had a lifelong illness that can kill her, my father was thrown out of the church that he pastored by immature church members that were stirred up a few unhappy people, my mother and my father grieved themselves to early graves over my brother's death, now my sister has a problem that causes her to not trust anyone anymore and I just found her after she has been missing for over two years without any word from her...she will disappear again I know, my best friend is buried about fifteen feet from my brother after being killed in the line of duty as a police officer, I lost a business a few years ago, another close friend of mine and a very dedicated Christian died recently of cancer, and on it goes.
I mention these things not for sympathy, but only to ask...Is all of this because we did not have enough faith to overcome? Are we all sinners that God is getting even with because we dare to get sick or allow problems rather than faith them away?

True faith is when you know beyond a doubt that God will go with us through our difficulties and many times it is "His Will" just as it was for those in the bible. He will also allow some great times as well! Troubles come at times to help strengthen our faith and dependence on him and it comes because he said "In this world you will have tribulation".

Have you ever noticed that Faith Healers do end up dieing? Did they lose their faith? Everyone will die someday unless the Lord comes back first? Ever wonder why the Disciples did not have great faith based abundant lives of financial security without illness and death? Do we know something they never found out? Nope they were stoned, mutilated, crucified, sawed in half, cast out, hated, starved, and you name it! Their faith stayed with them through the worst of times.

I'm sorry to sound a bit angry I promise that I am not really angry at anyone that has written on this post, but you ought to see how I react when the "name it and claim it" crowd comes on TV! :mad: I do apologize for sounding self-righteous and a bit angry, but this life is not about you and its not about me, and its definitely not about what God will give us because of our faith! God allows things to happen for His own purposes be it good or bad and it is to strengthen our relationship with Him.

Does God dislike my family? God did not do things to my family, Satan did it, but God had to allow it before it could happen. I don't know why, but I know that God still loves me and He loves my family through it all.Yes some things d happen for a reason...we are not God and he does not do things our way. That is true faith...Knowing a God that hurts when you hurt, but is in control. Knowing that God wants us to be close to him regardless of what happens. If God is just there to give us the desires of our hearts only then he is our Candy Man and we are in control, not Him. I doubt that very much!

I hope this makes a little sense without sounding hateful. God loves you as much as he loves me, but some teaching is taught for our benefit rather than from God's sovereignty perspective. I don't have all the answers, but I know enough to see when God is being used to work for us instead of us working and trusting him whatever the cost. (Man I'm a long winded dude...huh?)

Salvation is Free to all that accept it. God is in control not us. When we get to Heaven there will be nothing that we can brag on outside of His love, His Sacrifice on the cross, and His hand guiding us through all of the Devils traps that finally brings us to safety, eternal health, and blessings. That will be our truest form of worship when we see what he has done, not what we did in our great faith. (Okay maybe this turned out to be my first novel :rolleyes: )

Respectfully,
John
My website has changed to www.johngodfreybooks.com and is no longer he one listed below. I keep trying to change it here but so far no luck???

[Russ~Anna Lee]

John, You said it well...You said what was on your heart and I believe were guided by the Holy Spirit...Name it and claim it teachers are way off the mark...I have been homeless for over 7 yrs I have come to believe that it has been in preparation for things to come...There are so may things I could tell you but the fact is that I know the Lord could turn this around at anytime...But I surrendered to His will not mine...Sometimes I hate it...But I too know He loves me...If name it and claim it worked I would have a lovely home...enough money and my kids would all be walking with the Lord...In His time I have been promised that all things work together for the good for those who love Him... I needed to hear your words today...thank you so much...In His Love Russ~Anna

[lynnmosher]

***Hijacking for one second...John, have you gone into your User CP to change your signature with your link?***

[Don Quixote]

I appreciate your post, johnnyg67.

Is all of this because we did not have enough faith to overcome? Are we all sinners that God is getting even with because we dare to get sick or allow problems rather than faith them away?


No. That's one of the "name it and claim it" falsehoods. I'm certain you are convinced of that as well. Charles Capps, the infamous "preacher" from Arkansas has said (I heard him say it) that if you get healed and then doubt it God will "put hit back on yuh." (That's Arkansas-speak for "put the disease back on you"). I also heard him say "See, God was gonna heal eem (him), but then he doubted, so God told eem he wuddent gonna do it." Nothing less than horrific, vicious slander.

God's blessings!

[johnnyg67]

John, You said it well...You said what was on your heart and I believe were guided by the Holy Spirit...Name it and claim it teachers are way off the mark...I have been homeless for over 7 yrs I have come to believe that it has been in preparation for things to come...There are so may things I could tell you but the fact is that I know the Lord could turn this around at anytime...But I surrendered to His will not mine...Sometimes I hate it...But I too know He loves me...If name it and claim it worked I would have a lovely home...enough money and my kids would all be walking with the Lord...In His time I have been promised that all things work together for the good for those who love Him... I needed to hear your words today...thank you so much...In His Love Russ~Anna

Russ Anna, Thank you for your kind words. My heart goes out to you in your situation, my sister is in the same homeless boat much of the time but due to her paranoia she will not stay with relatives that want to help her. I worry constantly about her and have prayed that God would heal her more than she will ever know. I don't understand the why behind my sister's situation or yours, but I know God is not punishing her or you. My sister has always been extremely dedicated to Him and has led many people to the Lord. One day we will know why things happen.

I just feel my blood boiling every time I see things suggesting that God would take care of all our wants if we have the faith. It's an arrogant belief system that's full of self pride telling you that you need to be on their spiritual level to have God's love and blessing. I have been by the hospital beds and the death beds of many a friend and I have watched their faith carry them through until their last breath. Some were pretty much broke as far as money, but their faith was rich! We get it backwards many times when we see people with money, good health, and all is going well with them. Many times they (the wealthy) are given positions in our churches because of the appearance of blessings on their lives when if the truth be known, the broken hearted humble person sitting on the back row may in reality be much closer to God. Not to say that God doesn't use wealthy people as well, or that God will not bless you financially, all I'm saying is that we judge outwardly but God judges the heart! All of our goodness is as filthy rags in His sight. He holds the keys to our lives, we strive to better ourselves while following Him, but in His love He makes the decisions that are best for us even when we cannot see it at the time. Hey...your in good company! Jesus said that "the foxes have holes, but the son of man has no where to lay his head" No one ever had more faith than he did, but He had no real home! (Whoops...I apologize I'm writing allot again)

I'll stop my rambling by saying that it seems that you're in the trucking business and I know that is tough especially right now. Many truckers need people to love them enough to show them a better way, maybe that is why you are there for now? God Bless You and I'll pray that you will have a home again as soon as He is finished with were you are.

[johnnyg67]

I appreciate your post, johnnyg67.



No. That's one of the "name it and claim it" falsehoods. I'm certain you are convinced of that as well. Charles Capps, the infamous "preacher" from Arkansas has said (I heard him say it) that if you get healed and then doubt it God will "put hit back on yuh." (That's Arkansas-speak for "put the disease back on you"). I also heard him say "See, God was gonna heal him, but then he doubted, so God told him he wuddent gonna do it." Nothing less than horrific, vicious slander.

God's blessings!

Don, you have it correct, my statement or questions were just to make a point! People that teach such things have to close their eyes to the lives of the characters of the Bible and to also discount the lives of the thousands of martyrs that have lost their earthly possessions and lives for their faith. The verse comes to mind where in the last day many will stand before Jesus and say they have done many works and great things in the name of Jesus (Self Pride), but He will say...depart, I never knew you! How sad to spend our life working for our religion, but never really knowing the truth about Jesus. It was all about Jesus...not us and what we could gain or accomplish.

Thanks for your reply,

[johnnyg67]

Hi Lynn, Yes I did go to my CP and I changed my web address but for some reason it never translates over to my post??? I'm probably doing something wrong. By the way don't you think that it's nice to have a place where you can "Highjack" without getting arrested? :rolleyes: Okay that was kinda dumb to say but that's my other side! :D

Thanks for asking and all suggestions are welcome.

John

[lynnmosher]

Johnny, Go over to my profile and I'll help you walk through it.

[Russ~Anna Lee]

John,
I can feel your compassion only those who have suffered can really relate...Jesus suffered more than anyone by taking on our sin... why would we believe that we would not... I have no problem Reading your posts they are full of compassion and wisdom thank you so much...I have been suffering from depression...I took my eyes off the Lord...I am on my way back... He never lets go...You have reminded me that my suffering is for His glory...I believe there will come a time when He brings me out of this and that will also be for His glory...He is amazing 8) I look forward to the time when I am in His arms face to face... It will be beyond anything we can imagine and it will be forever!! Oh man 8) Awesome...
Jesus I am asking that You would let John feel Your presence right now...I ask that You would help him with his sister...Lord I would ask that You would touch her and heal her mind...Lord she is Your child and I know that You have a plan for her life and You are always in control. Lord I ask that You would help John help her...Lord be with him now...fill him to over flowing with Your love...Touch him Lord Jesus...In Your name Jesus Amen...Take care John 8)

[johnnyg67]

Russ ~ Anna (I finally found the little swiggly thingy ~ that you have in your name. It takes me a while sometimes )

Thank you again. I admit sometimes I too get depressed, angry, feel like life has cheated me out of my siblings and parents too soon, and question things myself. But God is not surprised by my feelings, He understands my weakness and any hurt I feel and He lifts me back up to keep going. I have failed and fallen many times, but even when things have been the lowest I have never lost my faith in a loving God because somehow I always feel His presence.

Don't get me wrong, He has also blessed me much more than I deserve and that is not an empty vain statement. I've often thought that if I were God then I would have zapped ole Johnny long before now! But, because of His mercy, I have a roof over my head and four of the best grandkids that an old dude could ask for. We have eternity to get over the problems here. Actually, I'm sure we will get over things the moment we are in His presence. We are experiencing God in ways that some will never know, but I believe everyone has a cross to bare and great things to share that can uplift and help others. Thanks for your prayer and kind words.

[johnnyg67]

Lynn,

Thanks for your help, your suggestion worked! I'm signing off...gotta get up early! I appreciate your help.

John

[Russ~Anna Lee]

John, I have a few poems that I believe you will bless you...My email is... if you would like them...Thank you you have helped me through this day...We only need to get through a day at a time...I can do that 8)

PS Your welcome anytime you need prayer just ask 8)

[Russ~Anna Lee]

May I ask why?

[lynnmosher]

Sorry, Russ~Anna. I meant to leave you a note. There are internet trolls that like to sneak around and gobble up email addresses so they can send you their lovely unsolicited emails, spelled s-p-a-m!

[srussell]

I had meant to post on this, but have been really busy.

John, your posts were powerful. I don't know how else to put it.

The blab-it-and-grab-it false doctrine is easy to get sucked into, especially when the storms of life come. If you don't get healed, if you end up taking meds for depression, if your spouse leaves you, or you get laid off, the only answer that blab-it-and-grab-it gives you is that you didn't have enough faith, didn't "speak" it enough, had sin in your life, didn't use the right formula, say the right prayer, didn't send enough money to the TV preacher, and so on. It offers no comfort.

Regards,

Sam

[Russ~Anna Lee]

Lynn...Ok was just wondering 8)

[Russ~Anna Lee]

Sam: your right this kind of teaching leads you to believe that if your homeless like I am that God must hate you...In the 7 years I have learned that if He didn't love me and I wasn't living for His glory He wouldn't be teaching me these lessons..I have to tell you in the beginning of all this I ask God why He hated me why He didn't love me...I know that all I have gone through is for preparation for things to come...I know it will be worth it...I gave Him my life...I surrendered my will...which I have to do daily...I fall into His arms a lot...What a better place to be 8)

[Jeff Pate]

Dear Sam,

Perhaps you should read the entire article before making a judgment based on what someone else says. I think you will see clearly that I am not teaching a "name it and claim it" gospel; and neither do I tell people that God hates them when His promises are not being fulfilled in their lives. However, God's Word is TRUTH, pure and simple, and our experience does not negate this however much we want to assert it.

I trust you will study to show yourself approved unto God, needing not to be ashamed, rightly diving the word of truth as you continue in His word.

[johnnyg67]

I had meant to post on this, but have been really busy.

John, your posts were powerful. I don't know how else to put it.

The blab-it-and-grab-it false doctrine is easy to get sucked into, especially when the storms of life come. If you don't get healed, if you end up taking meds for depression, if your spouse leaves you, or you get laid off, the only answer that blab-it-and-grab-it gives you is that you didn't have enough faith, didn't "speak" it enough, had sin in your life, didn't use the right formula, say the right prayer, didn't send enough money to the TV preacher, and so on. It offers no comfort.

Regards,
Sam

Sam,

Thanks for the kind words. I'm a long way from being perfect enough to expect God to do my bidding for my benefit and I will never arrive at that point. I believe that God never promised a life of ease and continued health or wealth (can't find it in the Bible anywhere?). He is the potter and we are the clay and I have never seen a pot tell the potter what to make of it. Each of us are used as He sees fit. Being His creation and knowing that He loves us more than we can imagine, we trust Him whatever happens in our lives. Sometimes it's hard to trust so we question why? But real faith always comes back to the fact that He loves us. I know you have heard the saying, "When you can't see His Hand, Trust His Heart". I've had to do that many times, but I also have to admit that many times I've ran away from His will in anger and I have fallen pretty hard. I guess I get comfort that most Bible characters did the same thing. It is not a license to sin, it's just life! God's mercy is always there when I ask.

Of course there is nothing wrong with it when we ask for better conditions in our lives and our families lives. We can, and I think we should ask for God to provide us with good health, safety, and even wealth if we will use it correctly, but its pure arrogance to say and believe that He owes it to us just because we are good (in our own eyes), or we have enough faith. Sometimes He gives unexpected blessing but at other times He may seem distant and silent. He is still God!

So just like the multitudes that followed Jesus when they thought He would give them what they wanted, but left Him when He said there was a cross to bare and did not do as they expected, we still see it today in multitudes that still want Him to give to them, not vice versa...it's pretty sad.. They call "wealth and health" the abundant life, when the real abundant life is knowing without a doubt that Jesus paid our debt in full and He will see us through all of the Demons of Hell that attack us now until we are safely home with Him.

Thanks again for your post. Hope you have a good day! (Sorry, it seems that I cannot just write a couple of sentences. It must be a factory defect in my brain :confused:

[johnnyg67]

John, I have a few poems that I believe you will bless you...My email is... if you would like them...Thank you you have helped me through this day...We only need to get through a day at a time...I can do that 8)

PS Your welcome anytime you need prayer just ask 8)

Hi Russ~Anna, It seems that the rules are against publicizing private emails and that is probably wise. Can you post some of your poems here on this forum somewhere? I'm not on this site as often as I would like so I have forgotten some of the things available and have not had time to go back and check.

[lynnmosher]

Suggestion...Russ~Anna, Send the poems to Johnny in a PM.

[srussell]

Dear Sam,

Perhaps you should read the entire article before making a judgment based on what someone else says. I think you will see clearly that I am not teaching a "name it and claim it" gospel; and neither do I tell people that God hates them when His promises are not being fulfilled in their lives. However, God's Word is TRUTH, pure and simple, and our experience does not negate this however much we want to assert it.

Hi Jeff,

To start off, I consider you a brother in Christ. And though only God can see our hearts, I believe that yours is in the right place.

That is why in my post I did not say that you are teach that "God hates them when His promises are not being fulfilled in their lives." I do not think that's what you were saying.

I did read your posts, and am going to try to sum up what I think said. You can correct me where I'm wrong.



You disagree with the saying "God won't give you more than you can handle" on the premise that it is not God who causes sickness, sin, pain, depression, and poverty.



Jesus won the victory over those things when he died and rose again on the cross.



Therefore when when we experience those things, all we need to do is appropriate His victory on the cross, and we can overcome those difficulties.



That victory can be experienced now, rather than in the life to come.

I'll agree with you that this isn't "Name it and claim it" doctrine insofar as you are not teaching things such as that we can claim a new sports car or diamond ring and get it if we have enough faith. For that I apologize for lumping you in with that crowd.

However, if I understand your main points as stated above, the corollary of that is if people are experiencing difficulties that don't go away, it is their fault because they haven't appropriated God's promises in their life. They are doing something to inhibit it.

But when anyone brings that point up, you reply with statements like However, God's Word is TRUTH, pure and simple, and our experience does not negate this however much we want to assert it.

Which is a true statement. In Bible school, a teacher once said that if the Bible says the sky is purple, we have the wrong definition of blue. I agree with that statement, which is frustrating because you seem to make it with the assumption that you are 100% correct in your interpretation of scripture--that there is no possibility that you could be wrong.

I'm not saying you believe you're infallible. I don't know your heart. But what I am saying is that you are coming across that way.

So going back to my corollary, that if people are not experiencing complete victory, it is somehow their fault. Are you going to tell that to someone whose child is dying?

When my brother was sick, my parents prayed and prayed and believed for his healing. My mom's uncle, a missionary who has seen the miraculous happen, prayed for him. My brother still died. If what your saying is true, then my brother died because one of my parents didn't appropriate God's promises. It is their fault. Or maybe it's mine. Or maybe It's my mom's uncle's fault.

Would you tell my parents to their face that it was their fault their son died?

I think I'll leave you to reply if that's what you want to do. Then I'll leave it alone, and agree to disagree. If I'm wrong in my understanding of scripture, I'm open for the Holy Spirit to guide me to truth.

However, I would ask you to accept the possibility that you could be wrong in your understanding of scripture, and also be open to correction from the Holy Spirit.

I look forward to reading your reply, and l leave this post with no ill will towards you.

Regards,

Sam

[Jeff Pate]

Dear Sam,

Thanks so much for such a clear reply from you and I appreciate you taking the time to read this article. I've submitted myself to the authority of God's Word as interpreted using the revelation of Jesus Christ and under the lens of love. I don't claim to know it all and I eagerly seek out the truth from others whom God has called to teach His Word. So, to answer your question, I'm certainly open to teaching...

You said... "So going back to my corollary, that if people are not experiencing complete victory, it is somehow their fault. Are you going to tell that to someone whose child is dying?"

I would tell them plainly that God is NOT the cause of their problems or the reason their child is dying, and that God's Word has the answer to it. It's sad that instead of looking for the solution for the problem, many people are trying to learn the cause. Man brought sin into this world--not God and so anything that is a byproduct of sin is man's fault and not God's. God has not left His will hidden, but has revealed the mystery of his will according to His good pleasure... (Ephesians 1:9).

Jesus brought the "solution" to man's sins, and if we don't appropriate what God has given to us, it's not God's fault. Jesus died and paid for the sins of the world, but if someone rejects this payment and goes to hell, is it God's fault? No it isn't. So, why when Jesus bore our sicknesses as well as our sins, do we blame God when someone doesn't get healed? Surely, no true Christian would suggest to anyone that God desires for them to carry the burden for their own sins, right? So, why would we suggest that God desires anyone to carry the burden for sickness since Jesus bore them both? (Isaiah 53:4-5; Matthew 8:17; 1 Peter 2:24). God is shouting, "Who will believe my report?"

I would tell your parents the same thing... that if I would have been with your sick brother I would have shared the TRUTH with him if he were in a position to receive it. A person cannot possibly believe a promise of God unless he believes it to be God's will for him specifically. Was your brother told the truth of God's will in the matter of healing? People pray and pray and pray for God to "move" without first establishing a basis of faith, which is the will and promise of God. But this is like the farmer who prays for his cornfield to grow without first planting seeds. It's foolish! I have a teaching called "Prayer in the Absence of Truth" (http://www.bovministries.net/Prayer_In_Absence_of_Truth.html) that speaks to this...

I have a lot of teaching on healing on my ministry's web site if you're interested in reading... Again, this article is to express the truth that God is NOT the source of our problems, and He doesn't "give us" sickness, divorce, tragedy or things He's blamed for, but is the giver of every good and perfect gift.

There are many aspects of appropriating God's promises, but the highest level is for the individual in need to simply believe it is God's will to fulfill His promise and receive it. This is the highest manifestation of faith--to simply as the Centurion did, say, Speak the word only and my servant SHALL be healed. [Matthew 8:8] There was no doubt or questioning of God's will as in the case of the leper who said, If you will, you can make me clean. And Jesus said, I will; be clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed. [Matthew 8:2-3]

This leper knew God could heal him, but he questioned whether it was His will to do so, which Jesus quickly corrected by saying, I will; be clean.

The bottom line is this... God is NOT to blame for all the rottenness in the world--WE ARE. And I would risk appearing to be "insensitive" to a person while defending the integrity and character of God anytime.

The gospel of Jesus Christ removes all of man's excuses--for sin, for sickness, for depression, for fear, for lack of peace and joy. Jesus has taken care of all these things and they are available to us in this present world and also will be fully realized in the world to come. But if someone doesn't believe it, this doesn't nullify God's truth that God has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness through the knowledge of him who has called us to glory and virtue. [2 Peter 1:3]

I would say that health, peace, joy, holiness, freedom from fear and depression pertain to "life and godliness" of which Jesus has delivered us from this present evil world. [Galatians 1:4]

While many would be condemned by this, I'm not. Rather, I would be assured that God was NOT my problem and be challenged to grow and learn from this failure. If your brother was saved, then he wins anyway because he's now enjoying the fullness of God's presence. We can't lose for winning!

[Mouse5]

Here I am speaking up when I should probably keep my mouth shut, but here's my thoughts on the subject.

Has anyone here read the book of Job and actually contemplated it? One of the things I noticed was satan and God's discussion in Job 1:6-12

One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"
Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."

Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

"Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."
Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

What does this say to you? What was the purpose of God allowing satan to mess with one of His followers? I think it was to make a point. To prove something to satan, though what that is I still do not know. But it does prove that God does allow unbearable things to happen for a purpose. Whether that is to test our faith and trust in Him of for some other reason.

Plain and simple, life can become unbearable. But we do not have to try and bear it alone. God is always there to lean on if we choose to do so. Notice I said "lean on". That's not saying He will make the trials and tribulations disappear unless it is in His plan to do so. But He is there to help bear the weight. God did not take Job's trials away but in the end He blessed Job mightily. That is what I hold onto as I go through my own nonsense. I wait for that wonderful blessing that the Lord has for me.

One more thing, our trials and tribulations are not always a consequence to something we have done or because we do not have enough faith. It could be the effect of someone else's actions and we just got caught in the ripple. Or it could be that the Good Lord put us in that ripple so we could get caught in it so we can do some other job that He needs us to do. The point of the matter is, God is the one in control. He has His reasons for doing things or allowing certain things to happen. We need to just accept that. Question Him if we feel the need, but still accept the fact that He is the one in charge.

I really wish I had scripture to back my thoughts and opinions, but my memory is terrible and I can't always remember why I come to the conclusions that I do. I am going to close this with a passage that I am led to have you all to read. For what reason I do not know. I do know this. I am seeing all sorts of people trying to shove their perceptions on others more and more. That bothers me more than you can know. If it is one thing I do not like it's folks forcing their opinions and thoughts on others. Everyone who reads the Bible gets what God wants them to get out of it, each time it is something different, something that applies to their life at that particular moment, something that will either uplift them, chastise them, guide them or whatever else is needed and that is what I believe makes the Bible the Living Word.

Anyway, the passage is Romans 14 - 15:13. Get what you wish out of it. Like I said I have no idea how this applies to what is being discussed, but I do not argue with The One in charge.

God Bless

[Phy]

Again, this article is to express the truth that God is NOT the source of our problems, and He doesn't "give us" sickness, divorce, tragedy or things He's blamed for, but is the giver of every good and perfect gift.

Solomon writes:
1 There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under heaven:

2 a time to be born and a time to die...

I wonder what death is in your view. Is death a curse, a blessing, or something else again? I presume that there is some logical parameters for the expectation for healing. I'm curious where the cut-off is.

[johnnyg67]

Hello Jeff,

For some reason I cannot get away from this thread so even though your last post was to Sam, I still wanted to respond to you as well; hope you don't mind.

First let me say that I can come across as somewhat judgmental when I feel deeply about a subject such as this, but please know that I have done enough wrong in my life that I have no right to be the judge of anyone. However, I have been forgiven so I cannot let my past keep me from sharing my convictions. It seems that we are in a situation much like die-hard democrats and die-hard republicans! I have both in my extended family and trust me...no matter what one says to the other they will die before they change their mind because both sides are convinced they are absolutely correct. We have pretty much the same convictions and I don't think that all of the back and forth will change the minds of either side of this issue. We agree that sin and all of its after effects are here not because of God, but because man fell in the garden and listened to Satan's lies.

I do not believe that the ones that disagree with you here are in doubt of your salvation (if you believe that Jesus is the only way and the only truth,) but speaking for myself it seems that you have eyes that are closed to the facts of life that surround you. (in my opinion only) Please bare with me, I'm not trying to be smart, but there are obvious questions that need to be answered I think.

Can I ask you how long will the healing last once it's appropriated by our strong faith? 1 year? 5 years? Forever?


God does not do things half way so what is the time limit that we can enjoy the healing after it is given to us? If Sam's brother had known "The Truth" of healing, how long would he have lived a life free of sickness?


Where are all of the people that have been healed over the last century? If they are gone (passed away) then why? Did they lose their healing faith?

Jeff, my friend, everybody dies and it's not because of a lack of faith...it's a day appointed by God for each of us. Take a look around at the cemeteries they are running over, and then check the public records to see how many are still alive that are over 100 tears old! There ain't too many! I hope that it doesn't happen to you before you are older than dirt (pardon the expression), but Jeff Pate will one day get sick…yes sick and die if the Lord tarries long enough.

I truly believe God heals when it's according to His plan, but He holds the keys. I have faith that God will heal me if it is in his plan for my life, but true faith says, "God you’re in control, have your own way with my life". I have watched Godly people suffer and die and asked why? Later I have seen others come to the Lord because of the witness they had seen in these great Christian people through pain and death. You cannot bypass or minimize their impact by saying they did not know the truth, they knew it, lived it, and died by it! The truth is that God’s word of His love has always spread mainly through pain an suffering, not by the healers. That’s another thing. If I had the truth that you and several others have then I would spends all of my time and effort in the hospitals begging people to listen so they could be healed!

Have you ever heard of Joni Eareckson Tada? She has been a paraplegic for most of her life. Is that because she does not know the truth? God has used her disability for His glory and her life has touched thousands upon thousands of disabled people. Check her out at www.joniandfriends.org . If she didn’t have her disability or illness then I doubt she would have the impact on people she has. God’s plan for her life or simply lack of truth on her part?

Have you ever heard of the book "The Hiding Place"? It is about a suffering Jewish girl during the Nazi rampage in WW2 who became a world wide inspiration through her suffering. If she had known the truth would she have been spared?

There is a Chinese Christian, (sorry, I cannot think of his name right now) that was sentenced to prison for his beliefs, that was tortured daily until he finally volunteered for a job cleaning a ditch full of human waste everyday. He said that the stench and smell was so bad that no one would bother him or even get close to him. But that awful smell gave him the freedom to worship, sing, and praise God in that terrible ditch. He would sing the song "I come to the garden alone" That ditch of waste was his house of worship. I wonder if the truth would have spared him the suffering that he endured.

History is full of stories of Christian triumph even through sickness and suffering. What would he world look like now if they had all known and applied the truth you teach? We are still in a fallen world, Jesus made the way through this world, but we are still touched by the effects of sin. We are conquerors, but we still get sick and die. If you think the world is not fallen now, then why would the Bible talk about God's wrath being poured out in the tribulation?

Jeff, honestly this (my post) has gone on way too long I know and you are probably saying...Huh...what did this guy say??! Sorry I know that I ramble..
But if you can show me how your philosophy of having "the healing truth" to keep you well has worked in the real lives of people for extended periods of time, not just for today or short term, but evidence through past generations (because there is no new truth), and if you can show me how the overall picture throughout the Bible matches with what you are saying then it would make sense. I know Jesus healed the sick and it was to establish who he was and to glorify God, but where is the evidence down through the generations of devoted Christians that proves that if we plant the seed and accept the truth that we will not get sick or die and we will live the good life?

I feel that while you are honestly trying to show people a better way...a way of complete faith, that you inadvertently are placing a weight on them that is too hard to carry and that God never meant for them to bare. In a sense your teaching places untold guilt on people because when they hear your truth they will grieve because they did not know enough to tell their dying loved ones before they passed away. In effect they are at fault for being ignorant of the truth. In a sense, it seems that we are supposed to be in control of life and death according to your teaching!

Jesus said if you know the truth it will set you free (not add guilt) Freedom is when you know that it's not all about you and your faith, but it's about Him and His plan for our lives and our deaths. Our faith is real and it’s in Him not our ability to activate God’s plan to keep us alive here on earth without limits. No God does not put more on us than we can bare so we too should not put heavy burdens and unrealistic expectations on each other. God expects us to have faith while we follow Him...even in sickness and death!
(I'm not going to do this type of response again. Most people will probably pass away just trying to read the whole thing!)

Jeff I wish you the best!

[lawi]

claim it and get it doctrine ..here in Africa we call it God -craft....from witch craft ..is distorting the word of God ...it just exites and later leaves bunnch of desperate wounded soldiers in Christ ....how do you tell a lady who has served God for many years in intersesory or anyother ministry and has been trusting God for something else and it doeasnt come ....she dint have enough faith??....i better passue other things in life ..most of the of those giants of faith who went ahead of us had reallt troubles in their life it doeant meand they dint have faith .......most of them even dint see what they prayed and trusted God for ...but still they believed in God ......

Kshsj777 and Jonny u guyz rock thats amzinglyu wonderfull work ....pleasae keep up good work otherwise other doctrins will cheap in and rule and lead many astray ..thanks :)

[Laina]

Dear Jeff,

You may want to consider the scriptures below.

1 Peter 4:12 Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. 13 But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.

Romans 8:17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
Future Glory

18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.

[Russ~Anna Lee]

Jeff,
Below I have posted a devotion sent to me by my Pastor... Greg Laurie...It is from one of the books he has written...Sadly his son Chris was killed in a car accident July 24...He was only 33 he left a wife, a daughter 2 and they have a little girl on the way in Nov...This was from lack of faith? God was punishing him for something...This is what you way of thinking would lead us to believe...Do you realize that not one person has agreed with you? Please reread what has been said and pray...Maybe just maybe you can open yourself to the Holy Spirit and He will lead you out of what you have come to believe...Christians suffer plain and simple...Job suffered or Gods Glory...You don't seem to answer each of us...How is it possible that only you know the truth...Scripture after scripture has been used it isn't just opinions that we are spouting but the living word of God...I truly hope that you are seeking the truth...If you are you will find it...
Well you answer this question...Why am I still sick...Is it from lack of faith...Many of us here suffer from Fibromyalgia...I have been healed many time and like I have stated before back from death more than once...Yet I still have many things wrong with me...I have a relationship with the Lord I surrender my will daily and you are telling that I should be healed? And it is lack of faith? You are saying that I have been homeless for over 7 yrs because I didn't know that I should just ask and believe and home would be mine? I have tried to do things on my own and ever thing I have done to get me out of this situation has failed...So now I am giving God control...God either in control or He is not...Maybe you should pray for all of us that are sick and we will all me healed I am sure you have enough faith...But what happens if we are not healed? Does that mean we have failed?...I am sorry but you are wrong and we care about you and want you to see that some how you started believing false doctrine...Please reconsider...



Suffering as Preparation

Suffering can also be used by God to prepare us for a special task ahead of us.

The Bible doesn't tell us what Job's task might have been after God completely restored him, but it certainly tells us what happened with Joseph, in the book of Genesis. Through unbelievable adversity as a young man, God prepared him for a task beyond his imagination.

You remember his story. Abandoned and betrayed by his brothers, and sold into slavery, he was eventually elevated to a position of great power. As the prime minister of Egypt, the second most influential man in the world, he was given charge of Egypt's food stores during a worldwide famine.

Then the day came when ten of his brothers, who thought Joseph was long dead, came down to Egypt from Canaan to get food for their starving families. The moment Joseph saw and recognized them, he could have had them summarily executed on the spot.

Instead, he forgave them, and made this amazing statement:


"But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive." (Genesis 50:20 NKJV)


Earlier, he told them: "But don't be angry with yourselves that you did this to me, for God did it. He sent me here ahead of you to preserve your lives" (Genesis 45:5 NLT).

Did you catch that? Joseph didn't just say "God allowed it," though you could describe it that way, too. But he actually said, "God did it." Why? Joseph said, "To save many people alive."

God delivered Joseph from his brothers' jealousy, from a false accusation by his master's wife, and then from the dungeon, so he could interpret the dream of the Pharaoh and make provision for the future. And many, many people across the ancient world lived as a result. The suffering he went through prepared him for the job that God had for him.

Maybe the Lord is allowing you to go through some difficult circumstances right now to prepare you for something He wants you to do tomorrow. I realize that thought might not comfort you all that much in your present distress. You may be thinking, "No, this suffering doesn't make any sense at all. It's meaningless. There's no point to it."

Joseph might have thought that same thing at several points in his life journey. It's certain that Job did! But the truth is, God might very well be preparing you to touch someone else's life in a way no one else could.

If someone just found out they have cancer and you are a cancer survivor, you have no idea how much encouragement and perspective you can bring to such a person, who feels as though he or she has been handed a death sentence.

You have no idea how much comfort that can bring. And it would be something that only you could say. No one else could say those words with the same kind of credibility.

Once, we had a man named Brian Birdwell give his testimony at our church. Brian was in the Pentagon on September 11, 2001, when those planes crashed into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. Many of Brian's friends were killed that day. He survived, though he was burned over much of his body, and had to go through excruciating, multiple skin graft operations.

Afterward, I had lunch with Brian, and we had a lot of fun together. He is very witty and a great pleasure to be with. In my opinion, he is also a genuine American hero.

Before we finished our meal, I asked him if he wanted to do something with me that afternoon. He thanked me, but then said, "Greg, I'd love to, but I can't. I have to go to a hospital."

"What's going on?" I asked him.

"Well," he said, "whenever I go speak in some location, I always find out where the local burn ward is, and I go and visit the patients."

I remember thinking how wonderful that was. Who could have a more effective ministry to burn victims than someone who had been through the agony of skin grafts and burn treatments as Brian had?

Imagine being an individual burned over most of your body, and thinking, "My life is over." But then a survivor comes along and says, "Look. I know how hard it is. I have been there. But I got through it! And here is what God has been doing in and through my life since I got out of the hospital. He can do the same for you!"

Paul, who had his own serious issues with suffering, wrote: "He is the source of every mercy and the God who comforts us. He comforts us in all our troubles so that we can comfort others. When others are troubled, we will be able to give them the same comfort God has given us. You can be sure that the more we suffer for Christ, the more God will shower us with his comfort through Christ" (2 Corinthians 1:3-5 NLT).

God will give you that comfort—over and beyond what you can personally contain—so that you can share it with others.

[lawi]

[/B] :)

This wonderful I just love this post ..it gives life …its consoling ….i have been in intercessory ministry for all my time in salvation till recently I moved to music and have met warriors of faith but they have never spoke of ask-and get kinda thing …there is more in the Kingdom of God than asking and getting …heaven is a home we are waiting for were all will be perfect all is passing away

[Derby]

Quoting Mouse5:

'Anyway, the passage is Romans 14.1 - 15:13. Get what you wish out of it'

My NIV gives this the title of
'The Weak and the Strong'.

15.13 'May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.'

I think these giant threads have got us banging around tortuous side-streets, Mouse has plonked us back on the Highway.

[johnnyg67]

claim it and get it doctrine ..here in Africa we call it God -craft....from witch craft ..is distorting the word of God ...it just exites and later leaves bunnch of desperate wounded soldiers in Christ ....how do you tell a lady who has served God for many years in intersesory or anyother ministry and has been trusting God for something else and it doeasnt come ....she dint have enough faith??....i better passue other things in life ..most of the of those giants of faith who went ahead of us had reallt troubles in their life it doeant meand they dint have faith .......most of them even dint see what they prayed and trusted God for ...but still they believed in God ......

Kshsj777 and Jonny u guyz rock thats amzinglyu wonderfull work ....pleasae keep up good work otherwise other doctrins will cheap in and rule and lead many astray ..thanks :)

lawi, I enjoyed your post. Unlike me, your replies are great, short, and to the point! It still amazes me that we can communicate like this with people all over the world and especially with Brothers and sisters in the faith. We should always uplift each other.

I have been to your beautiful country many years ago while serving in the military. I had duty in Kenya, Angola, Mozambique, Ethiopia, and even on a very small Island called Rodriguez ( I may have spelled some of these wrong)and it was a beautiful place. Anyway I always wanted to go back to Africa, but have not had the chance. I pray that God keeps you safe as you reach out to those in the Islamic faith. God has you there for reason.

God Bless!

[Jeff Pate]

While I certainly appreciate all the comments made against what I've written, and although most people have supplied Scripture, it appears that we are to identify with the people in the Bible (Job, Joseph, Paul and others) instead of simply learning from them. I believe the Scripture is VERY clear with whom we are to identify ourselves, to pattern our lives after, and to also learn from--and this is Jesus. He is the example of God's man--what He created Adam's race to be. Joseph, Job, Moses, Joshua, and many of the Old Testament saints were pictures of Christ. Identifying with them instead of Jesus is like a husband who gets sexual gratification from pictures of his wife instead of from her in person. It's perverse!

Although suffering in the same light as Jesus SHALL happen to those who live godly in Him--persecution, none of these things are by the hand of God; and certainly things that happen to us out of fallen humanity are NOT God's work and will because God is not responsible for sin--we are. Will God allow someone to make poor choices and learn from mistakes? Sure He will.

However, as any responsible parent, He gives instruction to a child beforehand and then if the child ignores or rebels against these instructions, he suffers consequences; and he can be taught through them as well, but that doesn't mean this is God's preferred method of instruction just as a parent does not allow his/her child touch a hot burner without first warning him of the danger. Let's examine what Jesus suffered: rejection, mockery, challenges to His authority, death threats, temptation--all persecution-related events and eventually the ultimate suffering for our sins.

The apostle Paul suffered similarly and was even killed, but his fellow brothers raised him from the dead. In all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. [Romans 8:37] Paul gloried in the fact that he was being persecuted for the gospel's sake and called what he suffered light affliction. However, he NEVER blamed God for these things... Rather he pleaded with God to take them away, but the Lord reminded him that he was not redeemed from persecution. If a bully is bothering a child, does he go to his father because it's his father's fault and desire that he is being bullied? No, he goes to his father because his father has the power to stop the bullying.

None of the sufferings mention sickness, fear, depression, poverty in the sense of not having His basic needs met. You mentioned when the Lord said that He didn't have a place to sleep, and you conclude that He was homeless, but perhaps you should examine the Scripture closely because it appears that He, just like any traveling minister, needed accommodations when out of town. The gospels suggest that the "home base" for the Lord's ministry was in Capernaum, but they were not in Capernaum at the time as they had crossed over the Sea of Galilee just prior, and were met with a multitude. It appears that the Lord was in need of a place to stay while He was there, which precipitated His statement and request. (Matthew 8:18-20)

While the death of Greg Laurie's son is tragic, this does not mean that God is the one who killed him, or allowed him to die without first making an attempt to warn him. Ask the hundreds of people who worked in the World Trade Center and "stayed out of work" on September 11 because they "felt" like they shouldn't go to work that day. Ask the thousands of people who testify that they avoided getting on planes that subsequently crashed simply because they had no peace about it. Was this the devil warning them? Are they psychics? No, the warning came from God. There were countless warnings to the U.S. government about what happened on 9-11 and they were ignored. Who was behind this? God was!

I don't know what the exact cause of the tragedy was and faithlessness could have been a cause, but if he were a Christian, he has no lack of faith as every Christian is given God's faith--THE measure of faith (Romans 12:3), the ONE faith (Ephesians 4:5) the like precious faith of Peter (2 Peter 1:1), the mutual faith of Paul (Romans 1:12), the gift of faith of the Lord Jesus (1 Cor. 12; Galatians 2:20). Faith is NOT a problem with the Christian. He doesn't need "more" faith; he simply does not use what he has been given correctly and with authority (Luke 17:5-10).

Most people's problems come from rampant unbelief that is the world--especially in this country---where they are plugged into all the strife, confusion, and talk about everything that goes against the Word of God without taking every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ (2 Corinthians 10:3-6). The Word of God says that strife and envy brings confusion and opens the door for EVERY evil work (James 3:16); and that the tongue is a world of iniquity...that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature and is set on fire of hell. [James 3:6]

I could give you reason after reason something like this happens, but they would all be speculation and probably a combination of many. Do you not remember that Jesus Himself COULD NOT do any mighty works in Nazareth because of the unbelief in the town and among the people? (Matthew 13:58; Mark 6:5-6)

Why did the Lord tell a blind man He'd just healed NOT to go back into the town of Bethsaida? (Mark 8:22-26) Because this was a town of unbelief and the Lord scolded this town for their unbelief (Matthew 11:21).

Do you not see that community unbelief handcuffs the Lord's work? The Scripture says that the unbelieving and rebellious children of Israel did not enter into the Promised Land (a picture of the rest we now have in Christ) because of unbelief (Hebrews 3). Psalm 78 says that they turned back and tempted God and limited the Holy One of Israel. God's will for them to go directly to the Promised Land, but they walked in circles around the desert for forty years in their community unbelief. We know Moses believed, and others did, but the community of unbelief hindered the promise of God from being fulfilled in the time the Lord desired it to be.

Was God punishing him for something? Absolutely not! I don't know how you could draw such a conclusion from what I teach. God punished His Son so He wouldn't have to punish us for our sins. If God punished us for our sins, then this is double jeopardy because Jesus took the punishment for our sins. God's justice has been satisfied through Jesus (Isaiah 53:10-11).

Does God correct us, and discipline us--Yes, He does as any parent would do--and better, but this correction is NOT manifested in tragedy with the death of children, sickness, loss of job, divorce, homelessness. Did Jesus, who is the exact image of the person of God in full, EVER kill someone? Did He EVER make anyone sick? Did He ever tell a sick person to be sick for the glory of God, or that his sickness was punishment of some kind, or that his sickness was in order to draw him closer to God, or to somehow refine a character flaw in him? NO and more NO! He healed them, and it was the offer of healing that drew the multitudes to Jesus--not sickness.

Did He EVER destroy a town with a storm? His disciples John and James wanted to emulate the prophet Elijah (2 Kings 1) by sending fire down from heaven to destroy a city of Samaria, but what was the Lord's response? You know not what manner of spirit you are of. For I am not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. [Luke 9:54-55] That's a pretty harsh criticism, because it reflects their misunderstanding of God's best, which is the revelation of Jesus.

While He called Matthew out of his position as tax collector into discipleship and later ministry, we know this is a much higher calling.

Jesus did NONE of the things God is blamed for today, which causes me to draw the conclusion that many people believe that Jesus did NOT give complete revelation of God--only the merciful and forgiving side of God--and not the wrath of God. The Word of God says differently... Jesus IS the complete revelation of God's will for mankind, God's heart and His true nature and character and only religion can come up with some of the terrible things that are believed to be of God.

Jesus corrected His disciples through Words: O faithless and perverse generation! How long shall I be with you? How long shall I suffer you?

God's preferred method of correcting and discipline is through His Word (2 Timothy 3:16-17; Romans 15:4; 1 Cor. 10:11).

I know most of you probably read the NIV and it says to "Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons..." [Hebrews 12:7] and all I have to say is that is a terrible translation of this passage. The Word of God here is talking about discipline and correction by God, and the word translated "hardship" by the NIV is "paideia" which means: :tutorage, that is, education or training; by implication disciplinary correction:—chastening, chastisement, instruction, nurture." (Strong's Concordance) Nowhere in this definition refers to hardship as being discipline. The Bible I teach from and study is the King James and it renders this word "chastening". If you endure chastening, God deals with you as sons...

Just because no one on this site has agreed with me, does this mean I'm not sharing the truth? Should I just bow down to the majority because you or others don't believe what the Word of God teaches? I receive not honor from man. How can you believe who receive honor one of another and seek not the honor that comes from God only? [John 5:41, 44]

My doctrine is not mine, but his who sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. He who speaks of himself seeks his own glory; but he who seeks the glory of him who sent him, the same is true and no unrighteousness is in him. [John 7:16-18]

Do the will of God and continue in His Word and you shall know the truth and the truth that you know and believe will make you free. Study the Scriptures to see if these things