Is it Demons or a mental condition[bipolar] [Archive]

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lawi

08-03-2008, 07:43 AM

last week there is a girl who called our company and suffering from demonic attacks ...she wanted to talk to a born again person she was referred to me and when i questioned her she told me that they come at night and sleep with her i asked her when it started,she told me one time she watched phonographic stuff and exposed herself she started going for discos ..i dint know what to do..i haven't encountered such a case... but thank God for another brother a friend they have a deliverance ministry known the whole country for that[even the lady knew about pastor] and guess what they are having a crusade in Mombasa where the girl is ..mombasa is an Arabic town with History of witch craft and demonic stuff and Jinns ..people from all of Kenya go to Mombasa to get the stuffs[jinns] and they become very very rich by exchanging with their children eg first born and they die in accidents mostly
She went for the crusade and was the main attraction in the whole crusade she confessed all that stuff which she started at age 4yr she is 26ys now but her mum who is a manager with a company around don't believe its demonic it's a condition called bipolar she called and told me....and she was really thankful for trying to help and even offered to send me poetry book by Kimberly I will get it this week ..but saus she is thinking of sueing the pastor coz the pastor slapped the girl in front of the croud.
now am abit confused the lady and Morara sais it was demonic ..but the mum who i later found she goes to our church says its a condition called bipolar and had sorted treatment its confusing
what do you think????? have you even encountered such cases???

http://jesusfreak7.wordpress.com/

Tamera

08-03-2008, 08:26 AM

I believe there is demonic possesion that sometimes is misdiagnosed as mental disease. But there is a mental disease called bipolar, and it does cause the person to hear voices when it's severe. i know this because I had a foster daughter who is bipolar and on medication. Not only did she hear voices, she had mood swings that seemed to change every ten minutes, and she would come up with crazy, off-the-wall stuff and not realise how crazy it was. She had never been diagnosed. She was 15 at the time. She was taking medication for depression that made the bipolar worse. She had been misdiagnosed as ADD, HADD, OCD, ODD, depression, and some other things. After she got on the right medication for bipolar disorder, she improved drastically. Then we were able to help her deal with her other spiritual and emotional issues caused by her being abused.

Xenia

08-03-2008, 08:40 AM

What Tamera said is true - there is a mental condition known as bipolar. Still, who knows if the gal you mention was not misdiagnosed as well... maybe it was a demon tormenting her. In any case we know that God can work a healing miracle for her no matter how we want to label her condition!!! No worries Lawrence, we don't have to figure out all the details, we just lead folks to Jesus and He does the real work...:)

Hisart

08-03-2008, 09:25 AM

Every sickness and disease is from hell, so it doesn't matter if it is a demon or a disease. If it has a name it must bow before the Name of JESUS!

lynnmosher

08-03-2008, 09:56 AM

Whatever the cause, with prayer, God will be with you and help to right the situation. I will pray for you and the situation. Be blessed, Lawi, in all your efforts to serve the Lord!

lawi

08-03-2008, 02:36 PM

thanks saints for your advice i really do appreciate my Christ bless yah :)

Daniel

08-25-2008, 12:12 AM

Hearing voices is not associated with bipolar, it is associated with schitzophrania. Bipolar has to do with mood swings. I never suffered from schitz, but I know people who have. Thinking that people are after you, or that you are part of a massive conspiracy is also associated with ****z. People like this also love vast amount of attention and will lie about themselves. Usually if someone has one they might have the other, usually. I use to suffer from bipolar, not anymore. Some times it pops up, but it takes control, focus and getting your mind set on the right track. That has what has helped me and medication, which I no longer take. I could go on but I won't bother due to length and to much opening myself up.

Demonic oppression and/or possession is not usually the cause of it, but one must be very careful, wise and with discernment to see if it is or not. Just to say it is one thing and say it is demonic is very narrow minded and non-compassionate. I really doubt though that there is a demon called depression, bipolar, etc or whatever messed up name people come up with nowadays. A demon is a demon, some are worse then others. I could comment on some one else's ridiculous response but I won't bother. People who do have these conditions need to be understood, but better yet, they need to chose to take control of their lives, of their thoughts. How people do it is up to them. But one must be careful of calling it a demon, because no telling the condition that person's mind is in it can further hurt them, especially if it isn't demonic. That is like telling a person who believes that the FBI is after them, that they have bugged his place,thus, he goes around ransacking his house looking for the "bugs" when in fact there is something wrong with the brain and it must be taken care of and thus, afterwards, they can take care of the spiritual, if they so choose to. As far as the pastor's actions, I think he is wrong for what he did. No one should go around slapping people, even if they are demonically oppressed or possessed.

Godspeed and becareful out there, especially in that part of the world. I don't know all that has happened in that young girl's life, but I hope that this has helped. Call out to God for wisdom, discernment, truth and understanding and love.

Hisart

08-25-2008, 07:13 AM

Demonic oppression and/or possession is not usually the cause of it, but one must be very careful, wise and with discernment to see if it is or not. Just to say it is one thing and say it is demonic is very narrow minded and non-compassionate. I really doubt though that there is a demon called depression, bipolar, etc or whatever messed up name people come up with nowadays. A demon is a demon, some are worse then others. I could comment on some one else's ridiculous response but I won't bother.

Four other people replied and I don't see any un-Biblical responses, which comment was "ridiculous"?

God's Word says if it's destructive it's from hell, whether it's a demon or not.

Jeff Pate

08-25-2008, 10:15 AM

HisArt's comment is in line with what the Word of God teaches. Whatever the condition is, it has a name that is NOT above the name of Jesus.

From what Lawrence said from the girl's words, it appears to be demonic due to her background and culture of witchcraft (unless I read incorrectly) and the manifestation/visions of spirits.

Regardless of the cause, the solution to any problem is found in the Word of God--the truth. Jesus said, If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed; and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. [John 8:31-32]

This passage has sadly become a cliche in the church because it is understood to be an intellectual assent instead of living revelation. The key to knowing the truth is "continuing" in His Word, which refers to meditating, pondering, and considering. Therefore, if a person is not yet free, it's because they do not yet know the truth completely because once they know it, the automatic (not necessarily instant) result is that you will be free.

Being bi-polar isn't necessarily a demonic condition, but more often than not, it's a "thinking" condition... that their minds have been so greatly baptized in all the unbelief in this world, that they can't help but be depressed one minute and glad the next. If all I thought about was all the rottenness in the world, I would be depressed too. This person may also have a chemical imbalance because they are depressed. Notice I said that depression or thinking on depressing things causes a chemical imbalance--not the other way around. There are a few, however, that are a true medical condition, a birth defect, or byproduct of drug/alcohol abuse, but again, either way, the Word of God is sufficient to remedy the problem (Proverbs 4:20-22).

The Word of God says that we are byproduct of the way we think, and what we have heard and seen in our lives. As he thinks in his heart so is he. [Proverbs 23:7]

For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [Romans 8:6]

You will keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on you because he trusts in you.

[I]Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. [1 Corinthians 15:33]

Be not deceived: God is not mocked: For whatsoever a man sows that shall he also reap. For he who sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [Galatians 6:7-8]

Keep your heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life. [Proverbs 4:23]

Jesus said, Take heed what you hear. With what measure (portion) you mete (add or use), it shall be measured to you; and unto you that hear shall more be given. [Mark 4:24]

The only reason a person is not having life and peace in their lives is because of the way they think. Some of you may not like that, but this is what the Word of God teaches. Spiritually minded (being focused on the Lord) = life and peace, and Carnally minded (of the senses and being focused on circumstances) = death. Note that the passages from 1 Corinthians 15 and Galatians 6 are prefaced with Be not deceived, inferring that if one doesn't believe this, they are deceived.

We can control the way we think, and we have the choice to let not your heart be troubled [John 14:1, 27], to think on these things [Philippians 4:8-9], to cast down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity EVERY thought to the obedience of Christ [2 Corinthians 10:5]

God told us that He has set before us life and death; blessing and cursing. Therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live. [Deuteronomy 30:19]

Sorry for writing so much, but I think it's important to have the Scripture passages in view for those who may or will not study the references.

Jeff Pate

08-25-2008, 10:50 AM

I'll add this as well....

While we cannot control what other people do or say to us, and while we may have troubles in this life through persecution, etc. we still have the choice to remain in the peace we have in Christ, to choose life instead of death, to forgive instead of being destroyed through unforgiveness, to become better rather than bitter, to be more than conquerors through Him who loved us instead of wallowing in defeat and self-pity, which is why the Lord said, These things have I spoken unto you, that in me you shall have peace. In the world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer: I have overcome the world. [John 16:33]

Through psychology, the world makes excuses for anyone not having life and peace because it doesn't want to appear unsympathetic or not compassionate toward the suffering person.

However, the gospel of Jesus Christ removes all of the world's fatalistic excuses for not having life and peace, and the Word of God says that the choice is in our hands in the face of any adversity.

Laina

08-25-2008, 01:49 PM

Hi Lawi

I have a friend who's friend is Bipolar. Here's some information if you'd like to know more about it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorder

Seems there can be hallucinations and delusions in some cases.

I hope that in her confession she was also born again. If so, you've helped to give her new life and helped her to enter God's kingdom. Does she live with her mom? Did the pastor really slap her? If the woman (is her name Kimberly?) wants to not take her medication and see if she is really better, than you would know if the Lord delivered her. My concern would be that if she is well and continues taking medication, the drugs might make things worse for her.

What is Jinns? And what were you talking about the first born dying? I got a little confused reading that.

Hisart

08-25-2008, 08:38 PM

A jinn is also called a genie and is a demon like creature out of the muslim religion.

Phy

08-25-2008, 11:01 PM

Every sickness and disease is from hell, so it doesn't matter if it is a demon or a disease. If it has a name it must bow before the Name of JESUS!

People bow, diseases are something else again.

I'm just a writer, not a doctor, not a minister. I don't pretend to understand completely what causes mental illness, however, I caution believers not to throw the baby out with the bathwater and call it 'baptism.'

Speaking of Bipolar symptoms, my understanding is that it may be caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain. Furthermore, many, if not most, of the people who suffer this can live productive lives made possible by modern medication.

We know from scripture that demonic possession is real in some cases. We also know that some instances of mental illness might look like demon possession. It is important to correctly diagnose the root cause of one's behavior.

However, bipolar behavior itself is not necessarily demonic possession any more than is a ruptured spleen. (And it's worth noting that spleens aren't known for bowing to anything. They have a rather more specific function. People were created to bow. Spleens were created to destroy redundant red blood cells and hold a reservoir of blood.)

Daniel

08-26-2008, 12:30 AM

People bow, diseases are something else again.

I'm just a writer, not a doctor, not a minister. I don't pretend to understand completely what causes mental illness, however, I caution believers not to throw the baby out with the bathwater and call it 'baptism.'

Speaking of Bipolar symptoms, my understanding is that it may be caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain. Furthermore, many, if not most, of the people who suffer this can live productive lives made possible by modern medication.

We know from scripture that demonic possession is real in some cases. We also know that some instances of mental illness might look like demon possession. It is important to correctly diagnose the root cause of one's behavior.

However, bipolar behavior itself is not necessarily demonic possession any more than is a ruptured spleen. (And it's worth noting that spleens aren't known for bowing to anything. They have a rather more specific function. People were created to bow. Spleens were created to destroy redundant red blood cells and hold a reservoir of blood.)

Thanks for responding, better you then me, I can say that much. But I feel that I must, so good luck to me, eh?

Daniel

08-26-2008, 12:48 AM

Lawi said: "mombasa is an Arabic town with History of witch craft and demonic stuff and Jinns ..people from all of Kenya go to Mombasa to get the stuffs[jinns] and they become very very rich by exchanging with their children eg first born and they die in accidents mostly"

Hi Lawi

What is Jinns? And what were you talking about the first born dying? I got a little confused reading that.

Hisart said: "A jinn is also called a genie and is a demon like creature out of the muslim religion."

"Demon like creatures"? They are demons, also known as genies as Hisart pointed out. Very dangerous. The whole getting your riches thing costs certain, well, value to the person that wants money, thus, the first born. It is like sacrificing your child for whatever you want. Demons are very picky about the first born, they, the first born, are looked up very highly in certain cultures. The direct line of descedents, and other family matters, usually begins with the first born. We see this in Jewish culture in the Bible. From the way Lawi is talking about the place, most likely her problem is demonic, but I am cautious to say that too because we dont know the whole story.

Mona

08-26-2008, 02:25 AM

Daniel

08-26-2008, 02:51 AM

Daniel, bipolar according to the diagnostic manual of the psychiatric community, does
include hearing voices at times. The brain chemical that gets out of balance is seratonin, whereas the chemical that is out of balance for schizophrenia is dopamine. I have no doubt that these mental illinesses are biological and that the devil and company attack anyone in a weakened condition whether the condition is affecting the brain or the heart or any other part of the body. It is especially sad that these beautiful people are stigmatized and often forced to live in almost solitary situations. They have a difficult time because in fact, they know that at times they cannot tell what is fact and what is a dream like thing happening. They are fully persons and desire everything others enjoy but are not privledged to attain it. They grieve over it and are forced to live in lonliness. I believe the lonliness is also an open door for the enemy to attack, not only for them who are afflicted but for any of us. We are created to live in community. I read a book once by a lady named Johnanna Michaelson, it is called THE BEAUTIFUL SIDE OF EVIL. It is an expose on the deception of the dark side that presents itself as the light side. It is a story of her own experience. She says that sometimes those bad spirits would come to make her laugh and then turn hateful and mean and say horrible things to her. It is a real world that we live in and that is why Jesus requires us to walk the straight and narrow so He can keep us safe from all the devil part of it. Meanwhile, the biological dysfunctions can be treated with medications. But even with medication we call upon Jesus and plead His blood in our behalf, or for our family member or for our friend. He is a deliverer, He is THE DELIVERER!

Blessings, Mo

I never said it doesn't include hearing voices. I am fully aware of what it is, thank you. And I read the book, I have it in my collection. Good book but to fully blame the stuff on demons is a little to easy for me, sorry. I believe in hard work and changing the way we think and God gives us the strength (Romans 12:1-3). I don't go around "pleading the blood of Jesus" anywhere or for "him to plead it again in my behalf". I find that distasteful and none biblical. There is to much false teaching out there and that is one of the problems that people, "radical" Christians, look at others who have mental problems and start saying crazy stuff. I am very careful, especially when it comes to talking to people who have mental disorders about demons and the like. One must use extreme caution in this day of age. I have experience in it as well as suffered, past tense, from it the major part of my life. But thankfully to God, the medication and will to change, a person can walk in health and learn to accept what is at hand. I found changing the philosophy I was taught, being told it was "biblical", into actual biblical thought actually helped quite a bit. Wildly enough that "bibical" theology was the same stuff I am hearing here, which is rather disturbing and it shows a lack of understanding and compassion as to what the person with mental problems really has and goes though. So I am little annoyed that people go around blaming demons all the time or lack thereof. I do believe in demons and that they can cause a lot of the problems, but this culture has collapsed so much already that the enemy is coming in through a different route and, thus Christians still go around pointing fingers. Enough said.

Derby

08-26-2008, 03:36 AM

lawi's asked 'is it demons or bipolar?' and many sound comments have resulted, significantly that it could be BOTH [Mona] 'the devil attacks via weaknesses'.

Daniel's comment seems eminently wise, 'be careful'.

I think Jeff Pate's view is also very important, that we need to base opinion on a correct understanding of God's Word, and there can even be contention here.

It is the ailing girl and the people close to her who particularly need wisdom, love and power.

lawi

08-26-2008, 09:43 AM

Jinn are common stuff here we have see and witnessed families who have lost their first born coz of jinn …though accidents mostly …I had a friend his dad went to Mombasa and came with them he got extremely rich and at age 35 he was the richest guy in our region yet he was very poor before ..so his son used to tell us that there are people who come to take him[he was the first born] but his mum refuses …it’s a long story but at age 40 the dad and mum died
On mysterious circumstances The family transferred to other area …….one of our family member sold his brother and he told his mum few weeks later the brother died on a road accident ….

But the girl seems to be doing fantastic she called me and told me she is desiring to seek God through praying fasting..and she is willing to stop going to clubs etc..am praying that through that sincere wish God will speak to her …but she knws God ..sometimes she speaks how she is close with God and Gods has been consoling her but she rejects him and finally God winning her back such stories ……she even tells me she doesn’t like her mums advice coz her mum tells her its good for her to explore her body as a young woman..etc so encouraging her to sin

This week a man was found to have been drinking human blood and when taken for interrogation he said he used to take the blood to a cleric who originated from Tanzania a coastal country next to Mombasa with many Arabs
A story in daily paper
http://www.nation.co.ke/News/-/1056/462618/-/tk8aw6/-/index.html

Am praying she will be fine
Thanks saints your responds goes a greater mile and I will always refer to them ……by the way in many discussions in workplace or bible study that I find I don’t know the answer I come here and search the topink and there you are I get the answers so know that the things you guyz discuss goes to another CONTINENT to change life ha ha Glory to Jesus

Daniel

08-26-2008, 01:08 PM

Wow, those are the type of stories you don't hear in America. I am glad to know she is doing better and keeps striving for what is right. We need, as well as all Christians, to strive for a clean conscious and pure heart in everything we do. Godspeed in your Bible studies, Lawi. It is very important to know and to study what the Word of God says. It was great to hear what you had to say.

Laina

08-26-2008, 01:19 PM

Thanks Lawi, for sharing that information.

I am praising God that the girl is doing better. \o/

God bless you!

Hisart

08-26-2008, 09:10 PM

People bow, diseases are something else again.

Phillipians 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted Him, and has given Him a name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly ones, and of earthly ones, and of ones under the earth;

Matthew 9:35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

Everything that can be named, must bow.

Phy

08-26-2008, 09:24 PM

Phillipians 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted Him, and has given Him a name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly ones, and of earthly ones, and of ones under the earth;

Matthew 9:35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

Everything that can be named, must bow.

I see diseases being cured, people being healed. I don't see diseases becoming entities which then turn around and proclaim loyalty. Fires burn or are extinguished. Same for diseases.

Hisart

08-27-2008, 01:08 AM

I see diseases being cured, people being healed. I don't see diseases becoming entities which then turn around and proclaim loyalty. Fires burn or are extinguished. Same for diseases.

Mat 17:15 Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is a lunatic and grievously vexed; for oftentimes he falls into the fire, and often into the water. 16 And I brought him to Your disciples, and they could not cure him. 17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I suffer you? Bring him here to Me. 18 And Jesus rebuked the demon, and he departed out of him. And the child was cured from that very hour.

lunatic - modern definition has this listed as insane or a disease of the mind.

Mona

08-27-2008, 02:06 AM

Daniel,
I did not mean to be offensive to you. This is a subject very close to my heart and one in which much of my life has been applied. I am sorry you felt it was personal. Please excuse me.

Thanks, Mo

Phy

08-27-2008, 09:10 AM

lunatic - modern definition has this listed as insane or a disease of the mind.

I agree that demons bow - they are entities. What do you do with appendicitis?

Jeff Pate

08-27-2008, 09:50 AM

I believe in hard work and changing the way we think and God gives us the strength (Romans 12:1-3). I don't go around "pleading the blood of Jesus" anywhere or for "him to plead it again in my behalf". I find that distasteful and none biblical. I found changing the philosophy I was taught, being told it was "biblical", into actual biblical thought actually helped quite a bit. Wildly enough that "bibical" theology was the same stuff I am hearing here, which is rather disturbing and it shows a lack of understanding and compassion as to what the person with mental problems really has and goes though. So I am little annoyed that people go around blaming demons all the time or lack thereof.

Within the threads of Daniel's annoyance, he proclaims some great truths from the Word of God. The passage from Romans 12 says that by renewing our minds (changing the way we think, our philosophy, our world view, our paradigm) we are transformed so that we may PROVE (in our outward man--as an apple proves it is part of an apple tree) that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. I guess it would help beforehand to determine the will of God in a matter before seeking to prove it, because it appears that many do not view God's will to be that He desires ALL to be well as much as He will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. [1Timothy 2:4]

In other words, He has bought us with a price in order that we glorify Him in spirit, soul, and in body (1 Cor. 6:20; 1 Thess 5:23). So then, after the will of God has been determined, we can then rely on the faithfulness of His Word to accomplish what He has promised--to NOT return unto Him void (Isaiah 54:10-11).

The phrase "pleading the blood" is common among those (and pardon me for using a label) in the charismatic realm, in that they are simply using the blood of Jesus as a way of remembrance of His sacrifice as we do when we remember Him during the Lord's Supper. However, some take this way beyond the scope of Scripture to mean that there is a subsequent "application" of the blood, which is NOT biblical and demeans His sacrifice. The Word of God says that Jesus entered in ONCE with His own blood and obtained ETERNAL REDEMPTION for us all (Hebrews 7:26-27; 9:12, 24-28. The blood was applied only ONCE so He or we, for that matter, need not seek to have Him apply it again.

In regards to demons and whether it be a demonic issue or not, I see much of the "blame game" going on where people place the responsibility for a lack of life and peace either on God, or they may say "the devil made me do it" or blame the devil for attacking them, or they may blame their parents, or society, or the color of their skin, or where they were born, but rarely do they look in the mirror and see that perhaps they might be missing it somehow. We should always look first to ourselves, which is why Jesus said that before you try to take the speck out of someone else's eye, you had better get the plank out of your own eye (Matthew 7:3-5).

The sad fact is that God gets blamed for so many things for which He is not responsible, and the devil gets way too much credit for being more faithful to attack and torment us than God is faithful to His own Word.

This is why the body of Christ has been given discernment to correctly "diagnose" whether a problem is organic like a disease, a byproduct of wrong thinking, or an actual demonic attack. We cannot rule out demons simply because we may appear to be not compassionate. No one wants to tell a person their problem is demonic as much as a doctor doesn't want to tell his patient about cancer, but he is doing the suffering person a disservice by not telling him the truth. I would prefer to risk offending the sick person for the greater good of getting him healed than ignoring the cause and sending the sick person away without being helped. We must remember that Jesus actually spit ON a blind man to see him healed (Mark 8:22-25). I would imagine it was just as "offensive" to be spat upon then as it is today.

Either way, as has been asserted by myself and others, the Word of God is sufficient to take care of any and all problems we may have.

Phy

08-27-2008, 09:58 AM

Tamera

08-27-2008, 10:00 AM

What's wrong with using all avenues to find healing: doctors, medicine, natural remedies, and of course prayer? Doesn't all healing come from God?

Hisart

08-27-2008, 10:13 AM

Depends on who you run to first.

Hisart

08-27-2008, 10:18 AM

I agree that demons bow - they are entities. What do you do with appendicitis?

First you check your faith level, God will meet you at your level. Do you have the peace of the solid knowing that God can and has healed you? If you don't then don't be stupid and just speak faithless words! Go to the Doc and thank God on the way that He has healed you ... the lepers were healed on their way. ;)

Jeff Pate

08-27-2008, 10:33 AM

Again, even something as basic and physically mundane as appendicitis?

I have to think there are times when the Word of God would have you use the technology and wisdom available in the day to treat the illness. Pray, and then pass a Band-Aid.

I think what we're talking about here is what constitutes common sense. Jeff wants to re-route everything back through scripture and all of that, and I get that. But surely some things just are as pragmatic as seeing the local sawbones. If we're not very careful, we're bumping right against 'parents allowed child to die because of their faith' territory here.

Jesus taught the prayer of faith in Mark 11:22-24:

Have faith in God. For truly I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be removed and be cast into the sea, and not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he said shall come to pass, he shall have whatsoever he said. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever you desire, when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you shall have them.

Mountains refer to obstacles or problems in our lives and the Lord is telling us to speak to them, NOT to God, but to them, and tell them to leave, or be healed, or whatever the desire is (as long as it is in agreement with God's revealed will), but the key is to NOT doubt in your heart, and believe that what you said SHALL come to pass, and believe this WHEN you pray.

So then, if you have an issue with your appendix, speak to your appendix and command it to be healed in the name of Jesus. You might find this silly, but the Word of God says that God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise. [1 Cor. 1:27] The Lord spoke to a fig tree and it died, so why can't a person with Christ in him speak to illness and command it to die. Viruses and infections are living organisms, so if they live, then they can certainly die. Radiation and chemotherapy kill cells (cancer and healthy) and so then our words that bring either life or death (Proverbs 18:21) can be used to kill disease and bring life to our bodies. Jesus said For by your words you shall be justified (made free) and by your words you shall be condemned (placed in bondage--Proverbs 6:2). [Matthew 12:37]

About re-routing everything through Scripture... if God has magnified His Word above His own name (Psalm 138:2) then why would I not do the same thing?

Jesus said, For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also... for out of the abundance of the heart a man speaks. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart brings forth good things... [Matthew 6:21; 12:34-35]

The Word of God is THE most practical method of solving any problem. Why would getting a limb removed or cutting open a body to remove an organ be more practical than doing what the Word of God teaches?

Tamera

08-27-2008, 11:36 AM

Phy

08-27-2008, 12:07 PM

I agree with the doctrine behind what Jeff and Hisart is saying. My problem comes when you seem to imply that if I go to the doctor too, I don't have enough faith.

Word. (The Apostle Luke was a physician. I'm looking for the spiritual pragmatism.)

Jeff Pate

08-27-2008, 07:12 PM

I agree with the doctrine behind what Jeff and Hisart is saying. My problem comes when you seem to imply that if I go to the doctor too, I don't have enough faith. I believe in healed. I have been healed many times. A number of times that miraculous healing came after being treated by a doctor for a while. Sometimes God used the doctor to heal me. But I still give the glory to God, and I don't credit my faith for the healing. By that, I mean, I don't have faith in faith. I have faith in God.

Tamera, having enough faith is never the problem for someone who has been truly born again because they were given the faith of Christ. Faith is the gift of God and a fruit of the Spirit. Without going into a long teaching on faith, I'll direct you to my ministry's web site where you can read a comprehensive teaching on faith (http://www.bovministries.net/Faith_Series.html), that is actually part of my newest book With Wings As Eagles: Your New Life in Christ. (http://www.bovministries.net/Wings_As_Eagles.html)

With that said... having or possessing enough or adequate faith is never the problem for the Christian, the issue is more often incorrect usage of faith, or a simple case of unbelief, which also has to be explained.

Unbelief doesn't necessarily mean that a person is not believing. Most people have been taught "either you believe or you don't. There's no believing and not believing at the same time." Here's the truth: faith/belief and unbelief are not mutually exclusive of one another. In other words, you can be in faith and be in unbelief at the same time. Unbelief can negate or hinder the flow of God's power in a person's life.

For example, the disciples in Matthew 17 & Mark 9 attempted to minister healing to the lunatic boy, and then later asked the Lord why they had failed, which is evidence of faith on their part as their question implies they expected to get the same results Jesus did. It was true faith because they put what they believed into action. So then, they acted in faith, but the Lord said the reason they could not help the boy was THEIR UNBELIEF. I know the NIV says "because you have so little faith" but the Lord's words immediately after this statement contradict this, because He then says, If you have faith as small as a mustard seed... [Matthew 17:20]

So, we know the Lord is not referring to a "little faith" being the reason for the failure because a mustard seed is VERY little and He said it can accomplish a lot. Again, I go into detail in the teaching, so please excuse me as I'm trying to be brief... lol

Similarly, the father of the same boy told the Lord, I believe; help me with my unbelief. [Mark 9:24] We see from the Scripture that Jesus didn't correct this man upon saying this. He didn't say, "Wait a minute. You cannot believe and have unbelief at the same time" because this is exactly what He teaches as recorded in Matthew 17, that people can be in faith and unbelief at the same time. Peter walked on water using faith, right? But what caused him to "begin to sink"? The Lord said, O you of little faith. Why did you doubt? [Matthew 14:31] The "little faith" Peter was using allowed him to walk on the water, but it was his doubt that caused him to "begin to sink".

Okay, it's good that your faith is not in faith, but your faith should be exclusively founded upon the Word of God. Abraham did believe in hope, but this hope was based on a promise of God (Romans 4:18).

I don't think God is mad at anyone going to the doctor for treatment either in conjunction with trusting in the Word of God, or even if they aren't believing at all. God is a good God and He simply wants you to be well--PERIOD! However, the best way to be well and not suffer from having organs removed or be subject to drugs with destructive side effects, or mistakes by doctors or nurses, is to receive directly from Him. He needs no help from any doctor. But will He help a doctor help you? Sure He will, but again, God's best is to receive directly from Him.

And to note what Phy said concerning Luke, the beloved physician. He may have been a doctor by trade, but there is no scriptural evidence that documents him practicing medicine. Perhaps he did help those who couldn't receive directly from God, but it's not in the Bible, so it's not a strong conclusion. Rather, it is believed that Luke's primary job was to be Paul's scribe. He wrote the book of Acts and of course the gospel account that bears his name.

Phy

08-27-2008, 07:15 PM

Jeff, in your opinion, should Christians ever go to the doctor? Should they never go to the doctor?

Jeff Pate

08-27-2008, 07:46 PM

Jeff, in your opinion, should Christians ever go to the doctor? Should they never go to the doctor?

Whether a person "should" go to the doctor is up to them. The question is, "Do they have to go to the doctor because God's Word or will is not sufficient to make them well and keep them well?"

To that question, my answer is NO they do not. This is what God's Word says. Who heals ALL your diseases... [Psalm 103:3]

However, VERY few live by this standard of trust and faith in God's Word--because of the simple fact that we have it very easy here in the U.S. in regards to health/wellness care. We don't HAVE to believe God for health--we can just go the doctor and take drugs that destroy our systems, which is far less work for them. Also, the fact that VERY few people are rooted and grounded in God's Word that it works effectively in them.

HisArt said it earlier and I believe this to be true: If you get sick, go to God's Word FIRST and try to receive directly from Him. Second, if you're convinced it's God's will to heal you, then call faith-filled Christians who believe in laying hands on the sick (James 5:14-15) and believe that the combination of their faith and yours will make you well.

Lastly, if you're not well and you're in danger of dying or not getting any better in a few weeks after the prayer of faith, then don't be stupid... go to the doctor; take medicine. God doesn't want you dead--He wants you well. Sometimes healing takes time, especially if it has been killed by the roots. Remember... the fig tree didn't wither away until the next day after Jesus cursed it, so be patient and allow God's Word to work (Hebrews 10:35-38).

Does that make sense? The Christian's primary source for ALL things should be God and His Word, that is life to those that find it, and health to all their flesh. [Proverbs 4:22]

Tamera

08-27-2008, 08:01 PM

Jeff Pate

08-28-2008, 02:09 AM

I understand what you're saying and to a certain degree, I'm in agreement with you. But carried to extremes, some Christians have used this teaching to justify condemning others for going to doctors or not getting healed. I've seen people hurt by these extremes. At some point, we are all going to die of something. The bones of Elisha that healed people were the bones of a man who died. As long as you don't condemn others and encourage them to go to the doctor if the healing doesn't come about right away, I have no problem with what you're saying.

"Right away" in regards to healing is a relative term and perhaps should be measured to be in proportion to a person's relationship with the Lord and how deeply they are rooted and grounded in what the Word of God teaches concerning healing or any promise of God. People who spend virtually no time in the Word, meditating and confessing the truths of the Word of God to apply to their own lives should not expect immediate results because this would be like a farmer who waited till the last day before harvest season to plant his crop, but yet sincerely believes his crop will be ready for harvest the next day. It just doesn't work that way, which is why the Lord gave gifts to believers to help this kind of person along.

I tell people all the time, that you have to prepare your heart to seek the Lord through studying of God's Word. You plant the Word in your heart for use at a later time. What I teach regarding the Word of God is revelation that was given to me by God years ago, and now they are just coming to manifestation after much study and meditation. This is what Joshua 1:8 means... reaping from God's Word is the same process as when a farmer plants seeds... there is seed, then a period of time for growth, and then there is the harvest (Mark 4:26-29). Some crops take longer to grow because their roots require deeper development under the ground WHERE NO ONE CAN SEE THEM.

The parable of the sower and the seed (Matthew 13, Mark 4, Luke 8) is the most foundational teaching of how the kingdom of God works. In fact Jesus told His disciples, Do you not know this parable? And how then will you know all parables? [Mark 4:13] indicating that understanding the principles of sowing and reaping of God's Word is the key to understanding every teaching of Jesus.

While I would never condemn a person, I will counter a philosophy that paints an inaccurate picture of the nature and character of God as revealed completely and perfectly by Jesus Christ. I will condemn the belief that the reason a person isn't healed is because God refused to heal them, either for punishment, for His glory, for some character refining, to teach them patience, to draw them closer to Him, to give them a ministry, or any other perverted reason conjured up by religion. It's a convenient theology to blame God instead of humbling oneself and admitting that they are missing it because it releases them from any responsibility to pray and study the Word and believe for themselves.

I've said this before, but if a person believes it is God's will for them to be sick (as revealed by His refusal to heal them), then at least put your actions where your faith is and don't go to the doctor for treatment in direct rebellion against what you believe to be the will of God. If it's God's will for anyone to be sick, then doctors are enemies of God and hospitals places of rebellion instead of places of mercy. Furthermore, if it's God's will for anyone to be sick, then Jesus never hesitated to thwart His Father's will because HE HEALED THEM ALL.

Daniel

08-28-2008, 02:57 AM

Whether a person "should" go to the doctor is up to them. The question is, "Do they have to go to the doctor because God's Word or will is not sufficient to make them well and keep them well?"

To that question, my answer is NO they do not. This is what God's Word says. Who heals ALL your diseases... [Psalm 103:3]

However, VERY few live by this standard of trust and faith in God's Word--because of the simple fact that we have it very easy here in the U.S. in regards to health/wellness care. We don't HAVE to believe God for health--we can just go the doctor and take drugs that destroy our systems, which is far less work for them. Also, the fact that VERY few people are rooted and grounded in God's Word that it works effectively in them.

HisArt said it earlier and I believe this to be true: If you get sick, go to God's Word FIRST and try to receive directly from Him. Second, if you're convinced it's God's will to heal you, then call faith-filled Christians who believe in laying hands on the sick (James 5:14-15) and believe that the combination of their faith and yours will make you well.

Lastly, if you're not well and you're in danger of dying or not getting any better in a few weeks after the prayer of faith, then don't be stupid... go to the doctor; take medicine. God doesn't want you dead--He wants you well. Sometimes healing takes time, especially if it has been killed by the roots. Remember... the fig tree didn't wither away until the next day after Jesus cursed it, so be patient and allow God's Word to work (Hebrews 10:35-38).

Does that make sense? The Christian's primary source for ALL things should be God and His Word, that is life to those that find it, and health to all their flesh. [Proverbs 4:22]

In other words, no, he doesn't believe you should go to see a doctor. He thinks that if you do go to the doctor then you don't have enough faith, basically what he is saying. To a point, no, I don't agree with this at all. Through my sickness, through my trials, I have seen God greater then in the supposed miracles people claim, no offense Tamera, I do believe you though. There is a Scripture that people who believe like Mr. Patt easily forget, or at least gloss over, that verse is 1 John 5:14 :This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. I don't see faith healers say that to often, and when they do they take it out of context with the rest of Scripture which speaks of the Christian life and faith. They keep looking for signs, wonders and miracles as evidence of faith rather then living a life worthy of the calling they have received (Ephesians 4:1-6). Yes, we can and in the end will be ultimately healed, but to focus to much on healing and the like (signs and wonders, etc) we miss out on what the whole point of follow Christ is about, becoming more like him. Now, where does that fit into the whole healing theory? When we look at Scriptures speaking of the Christian life, we find more about avoiding sin, living like Christ, our relationship with God through Christ and the unity we must have with each other. As a matter of fact, an excellent example of this is in Galatians 5:16-26. as a matter of fact, again, even Paul boasts in his weakness. When we look at 2 Corinthians 12:9, we find God telling Paul something so he wouldn't get prideful, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Read on, please in all the Scriptures which speak of the life we are to live through Christ. We are told to be, as Christians, to be content (1 Timothy 6:3-10), to live a life pleasing to God, to be unified (1 Corinthians 3), to watch our doctrine closely (1 Timothy 4:16, although it is written to Timothy, everyone of us should heed the warning), I could go on and on with this, but due to time, I won't and I am sure those who are diligent will seek out the Scriptures and Truth of the matter. So please, don't get me started on faith...

Tamera

08-28-2008, 07:19 AM

Jeff,

I don't blame God when I'm not healed. I also don't blame God when bad things happen. But the alternative is not always that I'm not using my faith effectively. God is a healing God. He is a good God. But we live in a fallen world, and bad things do happen. That doesn't mean I don't trust God. I do. As Daniel says, I trust in Him and believe in Him in a way that goes far beyond whether or not I'm healed. Healing is only one aspect of the Christian walk. There is so much more.

As Shadrack, Meshack, and Abindigo said to the king when they were threatened by the firey furnace.

Daniel 3:16-18 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego replied, "O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you. If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God whom we serve is able to save us. He will rescue us from your power, Your Majesty. But even if he doesn’t, we want to make it clear to you, Your Majesty, that we will never serve your gods or worship the gold statue you have set up."

According to the italized part, if we follow what Jeff is saying, they acted in unbelief. Yet we know they had enough faith to stand against the king, and that God saved them from the furnace. Hebrews 11 is full of many miracles and wonders like this. Yet it also lists those who weren't rescued and yet they were listed in the hall of faith. It says in Hebrew 11:38 that the world was not worthy of them. I totally believe in God working through signs and wonders. I've seen it in my own life. But I also believe He is working in my life when I don't see the signs and wonders. When it looks like total defeat, He's still there, working on my behalf.

I do understand what you're saying, Jeff. But that's only part of the picture. Daniel's talking about the other part.

Hisart

08-28-2008, 08:48 AM

But even if he doesn’t, we want to make it clear to you, Your Majesty, that we will never serve your gods or worship the gold statue you have set up."

According to the italized part, if we follow what Jeff is saying, they acted in unbelief.

Actually it is their heart condition! "Even IF He doesn't ...we will never serve your gods" The Old Testament heros listed in Hebrews did not have the Pure shed Blood of Jesus to seal their Covenant, but we do.

My faith level is my responsibility, not God's. He died for me and paid the price for everything. Do not ever be caught blaming God for the evil that happens to you, that's a sin.

Have I taken my kids to the Dr.s? Sadly yes, I knew I didn't have the peace of assurance and I didn't want them to suffer for my Faithlessness. Is it God's will that I took them? No, He died that they would be healed.

Does this place all the blame on me? Yep, He died to provide their healing, what more can He do? I am to walk by faith and not by what I see around me.

Even Job admitted it was his sin {fear} that got his kids killed and not God's doings.

Sad how many religion kills when God's Word says He gave us it ALL!:(

Tamera

08-28-2008, 10:00 AM

I'm going to answer your charges one at a time.

Actually it is their heart condition! "Even IF He doesn't ...we will never serve your gods" The Old Testament heros listed in Hebrews did not have the Pure shed Blood of Jesus to seal their Covenant, but we do.

I've heard that said many times. Yet every disciple but John died a martyr's death, and they had the better covenant.

My faith level is my responsibility, not God's. He died for me and paid the price for everything. Do not ever be caught blaming God for the evil that happens to you, that's a sin.

If you read what I said in my previous quote, you will find I said I DON'T BLAME GOD for sickness, sin, or bad things that happen to me. God is a good God. He is not the cause of sickness. But I don't always blame me either. Bad things happening are sometimes caused by the sinful, fallen world we live in. Yes, I need to excercise my faith. But I don't control everything that happens and neither does my faith.

Have I taken my kids to the Dr.s? Sadly yes, I knew I didn't have the peace of assurance and I didn't want them to suffer for my Faithlessness. Is it God's will that I took them? No, He died that they would be healed.

You and Jeff say you're not against doctors. I can't speak for Jeff, but it sounds like you are. Yes, you can go to the doctor is you're faithless and not spiritual enough. That means that you're condemning those who go to the doctor.

Does this place all the blame on me? Yep, He died to provide their healing, what more can He do? I am to walk by faith and not by what I see around me.

Sometime, yes, I do have to take the blame. But things aren't all that rigid or black and white. I'm not completely responsible for everything that happens to me. There are other forces at work: decaying bodies, sinful, fallen world, Satan, viruses, other people. I am responsible for how I respond to it.

Even Job admitted it was his sin {fear} that got his kids killed and not God's doings.

That's a whole other subject. Put aside what you've been taught about Job and the verses you've been taught to take out of context. Job had all this come on him because he was a righteous man and Satan desired, and was granted permission, to test him. If he was full of sin because of fear, he wasn't righteous. But scripture says he was. Job's friends were condemned for doing the same thing you're doing - condemning Job and telling him he must have sinned or he wouldn't be going through all this. Job, as we would in those circumstances, started questioning and blaming God. When God answered him and revealed Himself to Job. Job repented for questioning and blaming God, not for having fear. I get so irratated by people twisting Job to try to fit their doctrine.

Sad how many religion kills when God's Word says He gave us it ALL!

Agreed. I have no problem with healing and taking authority over things, only an unbalanced view of it.

And before you falsley accuse me in your own mind of not believing in healing or taking authority over disease, let me tell you something that happened to me this summer at church camp.

A virus hit primary church camp. It was a nasty flu virus that spread through Ohio and attacked my elderly dad. He couldn't fight and and died 6 weeks ago. Anyway, I was at camp. The last night 68 kids and some adult were throwing up. Intermediate camp started the next day. A lot of prayers and disinfecting happened and camp continued. No child got sick. However the cabin leader next to my room got sick and went home and both of my assistant cabin leaders got sick and went home. The camp was low on leaders because of the epidemic and everyone was watching me closely worried that I would get sick. God put in my spirit to proclaim that I came to give, not to recieve. I didn't get sick. But that doesn't mean that I blame those who did get sick for their lack of faith. This was an epidemic and an attack of Satan to stop what was happening at camp.

I believe in God. My faith is strong. But I refuse to condemn others in a legalistic crusade to prove God heals. I don't have to prove anything.

Tamera

08-28-2008, 10:09 AM

Feel free to respond if you want. I felt compelled to speak for those you condemned for lack of faith. But, as far as I concerned, I won't post anymore on this thread. God bless.

JoyG

08-28-2008, 10:58 AM

This thread reminds me of this popular sermon illustration:

A man was notified that his house was going to be flooded and he needed to get out of the house. He said, "No, I don't have to because God is going to save me." Then the flood waters start to rise and a sheriff comes and tells him to get out. The man says, "No, God is going to save me." So the flood waters continue to rise and the man climbs on top of the house. So a boat comes along and he is told to climb in the boat. He says, "No, no, God is going to save me." Finally, a helicopter comes along and they lower the net to rescue him. The man says, no, no, God is going to save me! Well, the man drowns and goes to heaven. When he gets to heaven he says to God, "why didn’t you save me?" God says, "I sent the sheriff, I sent a boat, I sent a helicopter, what more did you want me to do?" When God sends a helicopter, you have to climb in. So, action is a part of faith and prayer as well. Sometimes God sends what we need in a way we ignore because we think that God himself is going to "save" us when maybe HIS help is coming in the form we have ignore or just don't pay attention to.

I think God sent us doctors for a reason.

jacks girl

08-28-2008, 11:32 AM

It looks like this thread has gotten way off from the original question. That tends to happen LOl!

I agree with Tamera, especially the part about Job. He was a fine upright man and God took the fence around him down. What happened to Job all happened because he was doing and living right. May be now and then our fences have to come down too.

On doctors God gave them knowledge to help people. When we don't or if we don't have the faith to be well then we have them. Doctors are a gift from God I think. They are here to help when our faith is weak.

Jacks

Jeff Pate

08-28-2008, 12:53 PM

Daniel wrote:
He thinks that if you do go to the doctor then you don't have enough faith, basically what he is saying.

Daniel, perhaps you should re-read what I wrote because this is NOT what I said. In fact, I said that the person who has been truly born again does NOT have an issue with having sufficient faith because faith is a gift from God and a fruit of the Spirit. We have God’s faith—how much more would we need? The issue is more about unbelief and also about not using faith and the Word of God correctly—as your servant. And no, I'm not saying that God is our servant, but that we should operate in faith with the same authority that a master has over his servant. You can see this in the Lord’s teaching in Luke 17:5-10 where the apostles asked Him “increase our faith” inferring they believed their faith was insufficient to walk in forgiveness as He taught in verses 1-4. He once again refers back to the faith of a mustard seed, again indicating that it is not a “lack of faith” but in how one correctly uses the faith they have—by speaking to your problems instead of asking to God to get rid of them, just as He taught in Mark 11:22-24. I’ll deal with what 1 John 5:14 says in a second.

After this statement, the Lord then teaches them a parable about having a servant. There is no time lapse here—there is nothing to indicate that Jesus is talking about something else—that He was randomly speaking of another subject. The topic at hand was FAITH and the Lord was instructing them how to USE what they had been given in order to see the results—that as you tell a servant to do something and he should obey you (just as He said if you spoke to a sycamore tree) that faith works the same way.

There is a Scripture that people who believe like Mr. Patt easily forget, or at least gloss over, that verse is 1 John 5:14 :This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

What is our confidence in, Daniel? Our confidence is in Him—that He is not only faithful to hear us, but if you continue reading, the Word of God says, that if we know that he hears us, whatsoever we ask, WE KNOW THAT WE HAVE the petitions we desired of him. We HAVE them—present tense, just as Jesus taught, What things soever you desire, when you pray, believe that you receive them and you shall have them. [Mark 11:24]

This is the same exact teaching, although the Lord makes it clear that there is NO “asking” in this prayer, but speaking to the problem. “Ask” in this case is the kind of asking we do where there is NO possibility of a negative response. Otherwise, we could NOT have the confidence John refers to, and certainly we would not be able to KNOW that we HAVE what we asked for if there were a possibility of the answer being “No”.

The Word of God instructs us to ask anything according to God’s will. So where do we go to find God’s will? To the Will itself—God’s last will and testament, that reveals His will, specifically about healing, among many other things. Did Jesus say, "Ask and wait for God's answer" or did He say, Ask and you SHALL receive; seek and you SHALL find; knock and it SHALL be opened to you. [Matthew 7:7] This is an absolute answer of "Yes" when you seek what is in God's will.

When you go to the ATM, do you ask it to give you money as most understand “asking” to be—with the possibility of it saying, “No”? No, you place a demand on the ATM because of what you already know is already in your account. God's Word says what is in our account, and we come boldly to the throne of grace where we may obtain mercy and find grace in time of need. [Hebrews 4:16] This passage mentions nothing about the possibility of mercy and grace NOT being there, or that God's answer will be "No." I know this may be getting old, but I do have an article that speaks to this called "God Said, 'It is written...'" (http://www.bovministries.net/God_Said_It_Is_Written.html) and it was written in response to a terrible email that was called "God said, No".

Some may think I'm being irreverent or that I am teaching that I make demands on God and force Him to release His power. This is not what I am teaching, if you keep reading, all I'm teaching is what this passage says about having confidence in God's faithfulness to His promises.

If, on Monday you promise your daughter that you're going to buy her a dress on Saturday, then she will have confidence that she will have that dress on Saturday because of your promise. She may in fact believe to the degree that she will tell her friends that she's getting a new dress on Saturday, even when the promise hasn't yet come to pass. She bases her faith upon your promise to her. Is she being irreverent to come to you on Saturday and ask when you're going to the dress shop? No, because you made her a promise and she trusted that you will keep your word.

It's no different with God. However, God is MUCH MORE faithful and gracious than we are, which is why Jesus followed up His words, ask and you shall receive... with a comparison of how faithful a father would be to his son, and the faithfulness of God to be MUCH MORE faithful to give us what He has promised (Matthew 7:9-12).

So then, we see that “asking” is not with our fingers crossed; it is proclaiming the words of the Lord, Father, thank you that you have heard me, and I know that you hear me always… [John 11:41-42] Jesus said this BEFORE He spoke to Lazarus to come forth. Yes, He spoke to Lazarus—and NOT to the Father. He knew what the Father’s will was and He spoke the Father’s will into being, and it came to pass. The Lord understood what is written, For all the promises of God in him are Yes, and in him Amen to the glory of God by us. [2 Corinthians 1:20]

In spite of your experience with sickness and trials, God is magnified or glorified through His promises being fulfilled in and through us (Psalm 35:27; 2 Corinthians 2:14).

but to focus to much on healing and the like (signs and wonders, etc) we miss out on what the whole point of follow Christ is about, becoming more like him.

If we’re to focus on becoming more like Jesus, then we’d certainly better get to healing people because this was a MAJOR focus of His ministry. As I said previously, Jesus NEVER sent His disciples out the preach the gospel without commanding them to heal the sick, cast out demons, cleanse the lepers, and raise the dead. Of course, we preach and demonstrate the good news to people out of love (who wouldn’t?) and so this is how the world will know we are His disciples—by the love we have for one another.

Jesus and His ministry was the greatest demonstration of love the world has ever seen, and if we desire to emulate Him and this love, then the ministry of healing is a integral part of this. One would be foolish or simply ignorant of Jesus’ ministry to deny this fact. The Word of God says that as we die to our selfish desires, the life of Christ would be made manifest in our mortal flesh (2 Corinthians 4:7-13). If the life of Christ is made manifest in us, then we too would go about doing good and healing all that were oppressed of the devil. [Acts 10:38] Because, God is with us too...

When we look at Scriptures speaking of the Christian life, we find more about avoiding sin, living like Christ, our relationship with God through Christ and the unity we must have with each other. As a matter of fact, an excellent example of this is in Galatians 5:16-26. as a matter of fact, again, even Paul boasts in his weakness. When we look at 2 Corinthians 12:9, we find God telling Paul something so he wouldn't get prideful, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Read on, please in all the Scriptures which speak of the life we are to live through Christ. We are told to be, as Christians, to be content (1 Timothy 6:3-10), to live a life pleasing to God,

Our relationship with Christ, which is what eternal life is all about (John 17:3) will cause a person to have the life of Christ be made manifest in their body. If we abide in Christ, we need not focus on “avoiding sin” which is a focus on the law of “Thou shalt nots” and will lead people not into freedom from sin, but into the bondage and dominion of sin (Romans 6:14). Abiding in Christ will cause us (as fruit) to obey His commandments just as naturally as if a tree abides in the ground, it too will produce fruit. The tree doesn't have to try to "not" bear bad fruit. It simply produces fruit of his nature as we produce based on the nature of God being in us.

Paul gloried in his struggles because as he submitted to the life of Christ being revealed in his body—the knowing of Him and the power of His resurrection—more of Jesus’ life and power would be evident in him. I ask you read my teaching on Paul’s Thorn in the Flesh (http://www.bovministries.net/Pauls_Thorn_in_the_Flesh.html) and see if perhaps you view it differently.

Jeff Pate

08-28-2008, 01:07 PM

lawi

08-28-2008, 02:19 PM

we have a cult in Kenya called Akorino they dont believe in Hospitals etc they pray ..one dad was areested when a child bunned and wasnt taken to hospital was about to die neigbours notified police
this is personal but i believe God has done a BIG miracle by giving us a doctor ..so going to hospital an praying for healing to me is same i believe God heals and i believe he gave us wisdon to make madecine bla bla bla

Hisart

08-28-2008, 05:57 PM

Job 3:25 For the thing which I greatly feared has come upon me, and that which I was afraid of has come to me.

Fear is having more faith in what satan can do to you than in what God has already done for you.

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness nor shadow of turning.

Isa 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil; who put darkness for light and light for darkness; who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

James 3:11 Does a fountain send forth at the same hole the sweet and the bitter?

God cannot use evil to teach you or test you, but he can teach you how to deal with it. You don't shove your child's hand into a fire to teach them not to mess with it or to see if they learned first aid! No, yet you accuse God of doing that exact thing! We don't learn by being sick, that's religion. Read James 1:17 again, His will is healing.

Am I against Dr.s? No, but I would prefer to walk in His healing so He gets all the Glory!

Sorry if that smacks against your religion, but it is Bible.

Jesus Freak to the core!
Nothing is impossible for my Jesus!

Derby

08-29-2008, 07:38 PM

We have been away this week and I am catching up with various threads.
I go along with the flooding house story from JoyG, which I have heard a few times. A parallel story is of two missionaries being chased by cannibals, one says 'let us run', another says 'let us pray', the first says 'let us run and pray'.

I have a damaged lung and a susceptibility to chest infections. I go to the gym to keep my lungs as healthy as they may be, if an infection gets bad I get antibiotics from the doctor. I have had two breathing crises and it may well be a miracle that I am alive, and I thank God that he is looking after me, however he is doing it.

As I understand him Jeff defines that sickness is one or more of:
An organic condition
Demonic attack
A byproduct of wrong thinking - against Scripture

Daniel

09-01-2008, 10:39 PM

Daniel wrote:
He thinks that if you do go to the doctor then you don't have enough faith, basically what he is saying.

Daniel, perhaps you should re-read what I wrote because this is NOT what I said. In fact, I said that the person who has been truly born again does NOT have an issue with having sufficient faith because faith is a gift from God and a fruit of the Spirit.

Perhaps you should re-read the question the person asked, and then you’ll find that what I said about your statement is true, and if it isn’t, then actually answer the question. If a person goes to see the doctor, it doesn’t mean that they do not have “sufficient faith”, according to your interpretation. Faith isn’t something that we use just to get what we always “need” or “desire” in life. If one actually compares all the Scriptures in context and how faith is being used in Christianity, you find it is about knowing, following and submitting to that “higher being”. You find that in the examples of faith in Hebrews 11 as well as in the life of Christ and even of Paul. Faith is about “blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe”, not “see and you’ll believe”, as is becoming more and more in the Christian world. Miracles, healings, signs and wonders, etc, are what follow after a believer. They are God’s workings that reveal his hand, not us asking God to do it and then pray hard enough or have faith enough to see it happen then we praise our faith through Christ for the wonders that we see, then sign a relief and thank God that he is there to show himself and not “let us down”. Lots of Christians are being duped by the world that we have to see all of those things for our faith to be real. This is a natural response to the attacks we have and are having by humanists and atheists. Most though, are not as I said, but the underlining thinking is there. Most are legitimate, thus, taking Scripture out of context without realizing it. We don’t base our faith off of what we see, but we know faith is given to a believer through the Spirit. If one reads Hebrews 11, the whole thing, not just the first two verses, you’ll get the whole picture. This is a letter, not a chapter and verse book.

We have God’s faith—how much more would we need? The issue is more about unbelief and also about not using faith and the Word of God correctly—as your servant. And no, I'm not saying that God is our servant, but that we should operate in faith with the same authority that a master has over his servant. You can see this in the Lord’s teaching in Luke 17:5-10 where the apostles asked Him “increase our faith” inferring they believed their faith was insufficient to walk in forgiveness as He taught in verses 1-4. He once again refers back to the faith of a mustard seed, again indicating that it is not a “lack of faith” but in how one correctly uses the faith they have—by speaking to your problems instead of asking to God to get rid of them, just as He taught in Mark 11:22-24. I’ll deal with what 1 John 5:14 says in a second. After this statement, the Lord then teaches them a parable about having a servant. There is no time lapse here—there is nothing to indicate that Jesus is talking about something else—that He was randomly speaking of another subject. The topic at hand was FAITH and the Lord was instructing them how to USE what they had been given in order to see the results—that as you tell a servant to do something and he should obey you (just as He said if you spoke to a sycamore tree) that faith works the same way.

Not how one “correctly uses” faith, that’s not the issue, but how one understands it. Faith is not a tool. No where in Scripture does it express or state that it is. That is an Americanized economic teaching of Christianity that has been influenced by the American culture. And did you read Luke 17:5-10, or really 1-10? It has nothing to do with what you said. It is a very important lesson to remember about faith though. I suggest you read it. Your interpretation is lacking some clarity in the context of Scripture. The Scripture actually has to do with forgiveness and faith, then that is where the apostles “said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!” As far as uprooting mulberry trees, that’s yet to be seen. Can you do that with your faith? It means that though we have faith that is so small, being compared to the mustard seed, we can uproot that which is impossible without God, and cast it into the sea. There are more things to worry about then mulberry trees and physical mountains. This is called an allusion. It is a teaching method in lots of Christ’s teachings. Now in the example of the servant and master in verses 7-10, the servant would be us, the reader, not faith. And so I doubt that Christ, in this teaching was telling the disciples that we can tell our faith to “wait on me”. Nice interpretation, but not enough clarity or Scripture to back it up. This is brought out in verse 10: “So you (meaning you and I), also, when you have done everything (forgiveness as well as other things) you were told to do, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’””

There is a Scripture that people who believe like Mr. Patt easily forget, or at least gloss over, that verse is 1 John 5:14 :This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

What is our confidence in, Daniel? Our confidence is in Him—that He is not only faithful to hear us, but if you continue reading, the Word of God says, that if we know that he hears us, whatsoever we ask, WE KNOW THAT WE HAVE the petitions we desired of him. We HAVE them—present tense, just as Jesus taught, What things soever you desire, when you pray, believe that you receive them and you shall have them. [Mark 11:24]

I never denied that part of the verse, Mr. Pratt, I was simply pointing out to the readers that those of your “faith” persuasion tend to ignore that God is in charge and only he knows why some people are and are not healed. Just because someone isn’t “healed” doesn’t mean that they don’t have enough faith and that you and your fellow believers shouldn’t judge them or spout and ignore certain key Scriptures which deal with this powerful and submissive aspect of faith. We all know that we can get what we need, even when it seems like we are not, we have the power of hindsight and see that God did provide. I have done that on a number of occasions. As far as the reference in Mark, let us go on to the next verse which starts with an ‘and’, meaning that this is also connected with verse 24, “And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.” Now, did we run across this same thing in Luke? There seems to be a connection between forgiveness and asking God for things we need. It is called trust, or faith that we are called to have in God and in Christ. You cannot separate these two things due to the nature of what is being taught. I ask anyone who sees this to meditate and pray about it.

This is the same exact teaching, although the Lord makes it clear that there is NO “asking” in this prayer, but speaking to the problem. “Ask” in this case is the kind of asking we do where there is NO possibility of a negative response. Otherwise, we could NOT have the confidence John refers to, and certainly we would not be able to KNOW that we HAVE what we asked for if there were a possibility of the answer being “No”.

The Word of God instructs us to ask anything according to God’s will. So where do we go to find God’s will? To the Will itself—God’s last will and testament, that reveals His will, specifically about healing, among many other things. Did Jesus say, "Ask and wait for God's answer" or did He say, Ask and you SHALL receive; seek and you SHALL find; knock and it SHALL be opened to you. [Matthew 7:7] This is an absolute answer of "Yes" when you seek what is in God's will.

Exactly! “When you seek what is in God’s will”. “‘Ask’ in this case is the kind of asking we do where there is NO possibility of a negative response”. So what does it mean when a person asks God for healing and they don’t receive it, even when they totally believe they have received it? What if God is using that to teach them something? Certainly you cannot deny that. It doesn’t mean that God is saying “NO”, but you would have to know that person and pray to God about it and not judge their faith or that they are not taking God’s word to heart.

[/QUOTE]When you go to the ATM, do you ask it to give you money as most understand “asking” to be—with the possibility of it saying, “No”? No, you place a demand on the ATM because of what you already know is already in your account. God's Word says what is in our account, and we come boldly to the throne of grace where we may obtain mercy and find grace in time of need. [Hebrews 4:16] This passage mentions nothing about the possibility of mercy and grace NOT being there, or that God's answer will be "No." I know this may be getting old, but I do have an article that speaks to this called "God Said, 'It is written...'" (http://www.bovministries.net/God_Said_It_Is_Written.html) and it was written in response to a terrible email that was called "God said, No". [/QUOTE]

And why would God say “no”?

Did you just compare asking God to an ATM machine? I prefer to avoid your article after reading what you said about the ATM machine and God. This is name it-claim it teaching and is a heretical teaching and twists verses which speak of miracles that displayed Christ’s divinity, denying our self and follow Christ, and I can go on and on, but for sake of time and saving you face, I won’t.

Some may think I'm being irreverent or that I am teaching that I make demands on God and force Him to release His power. This is not what I am teaching, if you keep reading, all I'm teaching is what this passage says about having confidence in God's faithfulness to His promises.

What do you think of a person when they don’t “receive” God’s promises? These are pretty bold statements here.

Daniel

09-01-2008, 10:41 PM

If, on Monday you promise your daughter that you're going to buy her a dress on Saturday, then she will have confidence that she will have that dress on Saturday because of your promise. She may in fact believe to the degree that she will tell her friends that she's getting a new dress on Saturday, even when the promise hasn't yet come to pass. She bases her faith upon your promise to her. Is she being irreverent to come to you on Saturday and ask when you're going to the dress shop? No, because you made her a promise and she trusted that you will keep your word.

It's no different with God. However, God is MUCH MORE faithful and gracious than we are, which is why Jesus followed up His words, ask and you shall receive... with a comparison of how faithful a father would be to his son, and the faithfulness of God to be MUCH MORE faithful to give us what He has promised (Matthew 7:9-12).

How about the reader read the whole chapter of Matthew 7 to get the bearing of verses 9-12? That should put it into context. The Bible isn’t a book we can pick and choose which verses mean what. I do believe what Mr. Pratt is saying, but to the extent that he is taking it by not referring to the surrounding context or how the Christian life is (i.e. becoming molded into Christ’s image, denying ourselves, etc), we cannot understand the power of these words. We must remember that Christ’s entire words were not recorded (John 20:30-31, 21:25), but what is written down must be searched out and understood by what is around them. We must also remember what is taught in Ecclesiastes 3:1-8, these are also in God’s word and are very real. How can we accept God’s gracious gift of salvation if we don’t know what sin is? How can we know his miraculous healing power when we can’t understand what sickness is? So how can we accept God’s words and healings if we cannot submit ourselves to him? God can and does heal. But I have found in most cases, it is when everyone around us says, “No.” That is when God comes and says, “Now I will reveal myself. I am faithful to those who follow me.” And yet, isn’t he also faithful to those who don’t know him? Doesn’t he have mercy upon the weak and sick? He comes and heals at the time right time, not when we desire it so. We see this time and time again in Scripture.

So then, we see that “asking” is not with our fingers crossed; it is proclaiming the words of the Lord, Father, thank you that you have heard me, and I know that you hear me always… [John 11:41-42] Jesus said this BEFORE He spoke to Lazarus to come forth. Yes, He spoke to Lazarus—and NOT to the Father. He knew what the Father’s will was and He spoke the Father’s will into being, and it came to pass. The Lord understood what is written, For all the promises of God in him are Yes, and in him Amen to the glory of God by us. [2 Corinthians 1:20]

In spite of your experience with sickness and trials, God is magnified or glorified through His promises being fulfilled in and through us (Psalm 35:27; 2 Corinthians 2:14).

Okay. I’ve spoken to my problems, but most often then not, we have to change the way we think before there is a difference. Um....

but to focus to much on healing and the like (signs and wonders, etc) we miss out on what the whole point of follow Christ is about, becoming more like him.

If we’re to focus on becoming more like Jesus, then we’d certainly better get to healing people because this was a MAJOR focus of His ministry. As I said previously, Jesus NEVER sent His disciples out the preach the gospel without commanding them to heal the sick, cast out demons, cleanse the lepers, and raise the dead. Of course, we preach and demonstrate the good news to people out of love (who wouldn’t?) and so this is how the world will know we are His disciples—by the love we have for one another.

So when was the last time you prayed, knowing it was God’s will that a person should be healed and they were? When was the last time you prayed, “knowing” it was God’s will that someone should be healed and they weren’t?

“We’d better get to healing people”? Here’s another problem. People claim that others aren’t focusing on healings, etc and if they do then that power will come back and people will heal when preaching the Gospel of Christ. Otherwise if it isn’t true, then why are people who claim this topic, like Mr. Pratt, so adamant about it? The problem with that is they it is only half right. The problem isn’t with the hearer of the Gospel, but the proclaimer as well. So the main focus isn’t healing, but it should be the message we are sending out to a lost and dying world. Let’s look at his ministry focus, or really, the reason why he came (Also look at Matthew 12:15-21). “…The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sign for the blind, to release the oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.” (Luke 4:16-30).

Now where does the Jewish Messiah, Christ, who did these miracles to reveal himself and help others, fit into all you’ve said?

I really don’t want to make this any longer then it already is, so I will allow the reader to study the Jewish Messiah, Christ Jesus, for them self. If anyone has any question and wants to know more about what all I am saying here in this post, don’t hesitate to ask.

Jesus and His ministry was the greatest demonstration of love the world has ever seen, and if we desire to emulate Him and this love, then the ministry of healing is a integral part of this. One would be foolish or simply ignorant of Jesus’ ministry to deny this fact. The Word of God says that as we die to our selfish desires, the life of Christ would be made manifest in our mortal flesh (2 Corinthians 4:7-13). If the life of Christ is made manifest in us, then we too would go about doing good and healing all that were oppressed of the devil. [Acts 10:38] Because, God is with us too...

Healing isn’t a ministry, it is a sign as to who we are proclaiming. You are correct here in your understanding of 2 Corinthians and Acts, but the question, I have found, isn’t why should or shouldn’t it happen, but is there something else going on that we are not aware of? God isn’t held back by our unbelief, our understanding of what God does is held back by our presumptions on all fronts, not just healing. Another factor, I think, is the culture we live in. We hear things happen in other cultures, but why not major spiritual happenings in America? This is a legitimate question.

When we look at Scriptures speaking of the Christian life, we find more about avoiding sin, living like Christ, our relationship with God through Christ and the unity we must have with each other. As a matter of fact, an excellent example of this is in Galatians 5:16-26. As a matter of fact, again, even Paul boasts in his weakness. When we look at 2 Corinthians 12:9, we find God telling Paul something so he wouldn't get prideful, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Read on, please in all the Scriptures which speak of the life we are to live through Christ. We are told to be, as Christians, to be content (1 Timothy 6:3-10), to live a life pleasing to God,

Our relationship with Christ, which is what eternal life is all about (John 17:3) will cause a person to have the life of Christ be made manifest in their body. If we abide in Christ, we need not focus on “avoiding sin” which is a focus on the law of “Thou shalt nots” and will lead people not into freedom from sin, but into the bondage and dominion of sin (Romans 6:14). Abiding in Christ will cause us (as fruit) to obey His commandments just as naturally as if a tree abides in the ground, it too will produce fruit. The tree doesn't have to try to "not" bear bad fruit. It simply produces fruit of his nature as we produce based on the nature of God being in us.

No, we shouldn’t focus so much on “avoiding sin”. I stopped doing that a long time ago, I feel freer. But yet maybe we should break that down huh? It is a natural response to such a statement I am making, so that is my fault. Scripture actually says to avoid temptation. But that isn’t even what we are talking about. What is your comment on unity, or did you just focus on the “avoiding temptation” part? And good analogy.

Paul gloried in his struggles because as he submitted to the life of Christ being revealed in his body—the knowing of Him and the power of His resurrection—more of Jesus’ life and power would be evident in him.

Exactly. Very good, you are getting the point.

I ask you read my teaching on Paul’s Thorn in the Flesh (http://www.bovministries.net/Pauls_Thorn_in_the_Flesh.html) and see if perhaps you view it differently.[/QUOTE]

Uh, huh. I will read it to see more of what you believe, but I think you are still jumping to conclusions on people and the faith. God wants us well, sickness is a part of life, and I have learned from mine and God is gracious. I stand by that. I am not to sure if you can. If you want to even look more into the trials and tribulations aspect, I suggest you carefully read Paul’s words concerning these events and how the Christian grows from them and understands himself and God through them.

Here is a very interesting and insightful article: http://www.tektonics.org/whatis/whatfaith.html