Sad to hear CBS News survey on religion in America

[ThinkOnIt]

Have you seen it? If not, check it out:
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4204240n (http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4204240n)

[righter1]

I can't view video at work, but is this the one where X # of evangelicals (as well as other religions) think that their religion may not be the only way to eternal life?

I heard this on the radio this morning, and can't help but think they A.) don't have a very strong faith, and, B.) don't understand what the Bible teaches!

[Michael Scott]

Hmm...

A couple of thoughts here: Did respondents fully understand the question? I believe Jesus is "the only Name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12), but I don't believe that my church or denomination is the only correct version of Christian faith.

The way the survey results are presented, however, suggests that "Christians" don't believe in the necessity of a Savior. This strikes me as more idolatrous "faith in faith" rather than "faith in God." It's what Robert Bellah termed "civil religion" in Habits of the Heart.

It could be this is the result of just very poor preaching on the exclusivity of Christ. Certainly the mainline and liberal denominations won't focus on this, and it's possible many evangelical churches have forgotten it as well, what with all the emphasis on "felt needs preaching" that goes on in contemporary churches while ignoring solid theology (which is really a radical misunderstanding of the whole 'Seeker' movement - but that's off topic a bit).

I'm reminded of the passage in Ezekiel 33:30-32 "As for you, son of man, your countrymen are talking together about you by the walls and at the doors of the houses, saying to each other, 'Come and hear the message that has come from the LORD.' 31 My people come to you, as they usually do, and sit before you to listen to your words, but they do not put them into practice. With their mouths they express devotion, but their hearts are greedy for unjust gain. 32 Indeed, to them you are nothing more than one who sings love songs with a beautiful voice and plays an instrument well, for they hear your words but do not put them into practice."

[Thebigguy]

Wow that's convicting. I could certainly do more putting into practice. You know some of this "survey" is probably very bias. The news stations aren't allowed to report the news they report the news station owners opinion of the news. If they took a non bias survey they would be out of a job. Ok say those numbers were correct, was that because they took it from the general population or a liberal control group. Kinsey did this in his 1 in 10 book it was disclosed later that his homosexual studies were taken from a control group of all prisoners not the general population, hence a bias control group. One thing else to note on the black pastor that they interviewed you notice how short it was. Did you notice how we only got the opinion of a Episcopal church?
I bet that this whole thing is doctored up, probably a way to discourage us to give up or give in, remember I battle isn't against flesh and blood.

[Michael Scott]

Yeah, you make a good point. The survey results are certainly suggestive of what left-leaning types want to hear ie: tolerance for all, all religions are basically the same, equally valid, sincerity is more important than what you believe, etc.

It's likely the interviews were designed to reflect what the survey results show. But Pew usually does a good job of correctly surveying things. It lines up with what I've read recently from Barna, too. Don't despair, though. After all, we're not trying to win a popularity contest!

[lynnmosher]

This was also reported by the Christian news service, OneNewsNow. In their article, it said the survey was conducted by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life.

[Lookin^Up]

Since I can't view the video, I'd like to read the One News Now article, if you can link it. But chances are, Thebigguy is probably right. The news media selected portions that seemed to support their own bias against "religion," making it look weak and ineffectively. Praise God that Michael Scott is also right: we're not here to be popular. We're here to spread the Good News, no matter who may or may not listen.

[lynnmosher]

LU, here's the link to the article...

http://www.onenewsnow.com/Church/Default.aspx?id=150084

[Lookin^Up]

Thanks, Lynn. This paragraph especially disturbed me:

Nearly across the board, the majority of religious Americans believe many religions can lead to eternal life: mainline Protestants (83 percent), members of historic black Protestant churches (59 percent), Roman Catholics (79 percent), Jews (82 percent) and Muslims (56 percent). By similar margins, people in those faith groups believe in multiple interpretations of their own traditions' teachings. Yet 44 percent of the religiously affiliated also said their religion should preserve its traditional beliefs and practices.
Definitely a faithless trend going on, in spite of seemingly positive comments about faith on other fronts. That's assuming, of course, that it was not somehow slanted in the liberals' favor, of which at the moment I see no evidence. Nevertheless, we do need to pray for America, and pray hard.

I do believe it's possible for members of cults to go to Heaven on their faith IF and only IF they've never heard of another way. Possibly even if they secretly disbelieve their own religion's teaching and wonder about God. That, of course, is speculation; only God can judge.

[lynnmosher]

You said a mouthful...er...you wrote a penful!

[kshsj777]

That's scary. Anybody who thinks there's more than one way to get to Heaven ought to read John 14:6.

[Michael Scott]

I do believe it's possible for members of cults to go to Heaven on their faith IF and only IF they've never heard of another way. Possibly even if they secretly disbelieve their own religion's teaching and wonder about God. That, of course, is speculation; only God can judge.

The theory supporting your contention is known as progressive revelation. Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. He had no knowledge of Jesus Christ. Job said, "I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth." (Job 19:25). He also, had no knowledge of Jesus Christ.

Progressive revelation says that God's will is revealed, well, progressively. It is characterized as starlight (Patriarchal age), moonlight (Mosaic age), and sunlight (Christian age).

But just because light has dawned in one part of the world doesn't mean it has dawned in other parts. We are responsible to believe the light that we have, not the light we do not have. And God is able to apply the blood of Jesus to those who have the faith of Abraham in whichever age they find themselves.

The main thing to keep in mind is this: once we know about Jesus Christ, we are responsible to believe Him exclusively for salvation. Acts 4:12 "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

Those who want to broaden the way will find themselves walking on the broad way indeed. The narrow road is narrow.

[Lookin^Up]

Thank you, Michael, for expanding on my comments. That does sound like the thought process that led me to my conclusion. I might emphasize that since we don't know what progressive revelation a person has already received, it is folly to assume he or she is automatically going to Hell. That only God can judge, I'm sure you'll agree.

[Michael Scott]

Yepper. That's why we tell 'em about Jesus!

[Mona]

C. S. Lewis made a comment to this effect, when addressing a graduating group of "preacher boys", 'If you don't like Christianity the way Jesus taught it then start your own religion but call it by your name. You cannot change Christianity. It is what Jesus says it is," and we all know Jesus said "I AM the Way, the Truth and the Life AND NO man comes to the Father but by Me. John 14:6 There is another quote I have read and cannot attribute to the author but it says "don't get so open minded that your brains fall out" Our problem as Christians is that we don't read the Scriptures and we try to fit our 'religion' into an acceptable form for our culture and it won't fit. One of the most objectionable teachings of Christianity is that there is one and only one way to God the Father that being through Jesus Christ, because that is exactly what Jesus said about it. So, we know where we are in the scheme of things....apostasy!
Mona

[christwriter]

Sadly religious but quite mistaken. There's only one path to salvation.

John 14:6 (NAS)
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

[Michael Scott]

The important thing to bear in mind, especially with regard to Progressive Revelation, is that we are saved by our faith, not by our knowledge. It is because of this that Abraham is able to be saved. But faith without knowledge is a frail thing - and easily led astray (as is shown quite clearly in this very survey!)

The real tragedy with this survey is that the belief of "Christians" that other religions can lead to salvation is motivated out of an ill-formed compassion! It forms usually in response to the question, "But what about the native in (NAME OF SOME DISTANT LAND) who's never heard about Christ? Surely God wouldn't send him to hell!" Somehow, sending someone to hell for not knowing about Jesus doesn't seem fair.

Of course, this ignores the fact that hell is perfectly fair for the soul that sins against God. It is the Grace available through Jesus that is unfair. Salvation is unfair - and even more unfair if God simply allows a "starlight" faith like Abraham's to save.

Compassion without regard for sin's consequences, a sense of fair play without regard for sin's guilt, and a desire to seem tolerant of other's viewpoints, especially without regard for the corrosive nature of those same viewpoints - this is the unholy triumverate by which Christian faith is surrendered in the West.

[Mona]

Why do we all get hung up on Hell? I know we would all rather it was not there, but it must be; Jesus spoke on three subjects more frequently than all others, money, hell and heaven and in that order. Jesus, knew there is a Hell and He warned about it. God does not want any person to go to Hell. Scripture tells us that "God, is not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come to eternal life". Umm, we might say, then why did God make a Hell; and if He is not willing how can it happen? Therein lies the key to the answer. I used to think that God could just flip His finger and make thngs happen, and it's true He can. I have come to understand that God does not violate our will. We must come to Him admitting that we are a person who has missed the mark of God's required perfection. The word "sinner" means "didn't hit the bull's eye." We say to God "I am a sinner and I realize that Jesus is the way to You, I recieve Him into my heart and life and His blood as the acceptable sacrifice for my sins in Your sight. We tell what decision we have made to other people and then procede to pattern our life as a disciple of Jesus according to the Word of God, which we call The Holy Bible. Now Scripture teaches that if you have been made aware of your sin and the need for a saviour and you refuse to recieve Him and die that way, you will go to Hell. Right here is where the deflection begins. The nay sayers begin to ask the question of "what happens to the poor people who have never heard?" You know what..that is not the the question. The question is what will you do about recieving Jesus as your Savior? How concerned are you and I about people whom we KNOW have heard and have not recieved Him? We surely cannot "make" anyone make a decision for Jesus, but we can pray for them and befriend them and love them. Are we doing that?
As for "Progressive Knowledge", that is a real happening, I believe it is otherwise called "growing in the knowledge and grace of Jesus Christ." It doesn't come from the "theological intelligensia" who have studied the "J" writers and the "O" writers and the atheistic scientist's ideas. It's all right there in the Word and it's accessable by anyone who will read it and let the Holy Spirit guide them. What happens is that we/they "see" things in the Scriptures that do not fit our idea of a grandpa who just lets us do anything our little hearts desire, we dislike a God Who is also a Judge. He offers Himself now as One who is calling to us to repent and love Him. There will come a day when He will be the Judge; the Judge wants to know one thing..."did you break the laws?" If you did, do you have anyone to cover for your infraction? Of course we do and Jesus is free for the taking.
I have studied the subject of Hell in the Scriputures because I have been a long time in a main-line denomination where a good part of the group can't stand to hear about blood and say "my God would never hurt anyone". Wow! what He went through to keep us from being hurt BUT God honors our choice. GOD HONORS OUR CHOICE! We CHOOSE to go to Hell when the gospel is presented and we refuse the Gift of God. As for those who have never heard, just leave that to God and realize that WE are to GO with this message of Jesus and salvation. The duty and privledge is ours to let them know.
As for the "enlightened" ones of the up to date church, let them sit and ponder and discuss. What we need to do is obey the Commission, they'll sit be sitting there pondering and discussing. The real shame is that we who know the Truth, are also sitting there.
Well, this awakened the preacher in me. The Subject of Hell, as with all others, is best to be studied from the Bible with prayer and without any other material. You get God's view of it all that way.
It is sad that Christianity has been so preverted from what Jesus says it is but if we will get the Word out, there is power in the message because we are attended by the Blessed Holy Spirit Himself.
Also, re: the Bible and the reading of it, read it and weep apostate Church for God is long of mercy but He will not always hold His anger, so says He. He will, as He did with Israel, turn His head and let us see if our god's can help us. You see, His whole heart of desire is for our fellowship and love and yes He wishes to bless with all His being, but He cannot bless ugly or rather sin which is unbearable to Him.

[Mona]

IF I LOVED YOU
I WOULD CARE
THAT YOU HAD
CLOTHES TO WEAR
I'D CARE IF SHOES
WERE ON YOUR FEET
I'D KNOW IF YOU HAD
FOOD TO EAT
I'D ASK YOU
"HOW ARE YOU TODAY
COULD I HELP YOU
IN ANY WAY?"
I'D KNOW THE THINGS
YOU LIKE TO DO
THE DREAMS YOU
HOLD WITHIN YOUR HEART
IMPORTANT THINGS
ABOUT YOU I WOULD KNOW
AND SO
I'D ASK YOU,

"IF YOU DIED
WHERE WOULD YOU GO?"

I WOULD REALLY
NEED TO KNOW.
IF I LOVED YOU

I attach this as a thought for all of us that we really need to know about the status of our loved ones. Sometimes the children go before the parents and sometimes the parents go and we have a wonder about where they really did go. We really do have to know. Two of my sons have gone before me but I have the comfort of knowing their testimony and before God I tell you I could not bear it if I wondered.

NOW I WILL BE QUIET FOR AWHILE.

[Michael Scott]

As for "Progressive Knowledge", that is a real happening, I believe it is otherwise called "growing in the knowledge and grace of Jesus Christ." It doesn't come from the "theological intelligensia" who have studied the "J" writers and the "O" writers and the atheistic scientist's ideas. It's all right there in the Word and it's accessable by anyone who will read it and let the Holy Spirit guide them. What happens is that we/they "see" things in the Scriptures that do not fit our idea of a grandpa who just lets us do anything our little hearts desire, we dislike a God Who is also a Judge.

Mona, just a minor point: its "Progressive Revelation," not "Progressive Knowledge." Sorry if I seem to be splitting hairs in the midst of your rant, but words mean things, and there is a significant difference between Revelation and Knowledge.

And just for the record, it is my personal and professional opinion that the whole "J" and "Q" and other higher critical schools of thought are nothing but a load of crap, devised to support the atheist's notion that scripture "evolved" instead of "was revealed."

I just don't want you to be confusing a conservative theological principle (Progressive revelation) and a theologically liberal acquiescence to the spirit of the age (higher criticism). Maybe you're not, but it looked like you were lumping them in together.

You're quite right about Hell. Westerners don't want to hear about it. That doesn't make it untrue, but we stop our ears to the truth. The doctrine of hell is closely aligned with the doctrine of sin (and your definition is dead on!), which people don't want to hear about, either.

Jesus said, in John 3:18-19 "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil."

As long as people love sin more than they love God, they will continue to turn aside their ears from the truth, and turn aside to myths (2 Timothy 4:4).

[kshsj777]

I read a really good book by John MacArthur that's called Safe in the Arms of God. It explains Biblical evidence for why children go to Heaven at death.

[Lookin^Up]

Yes, some preachers don't talk about Hell enough. Other preachers talk about it too much, to the point that it seems the only reason to be with Christ is to avoid Hell. Both ways are counterproductive. The message of Hell needs to be counterbalanced with an emphasis on how having Jesus as Savior can change our lives, how much more security, hope for the future, freedom, and utter joy being Christ's child can bring. As the old saying goes, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

However, I fear this is a side discussion and we have gotten off-track.