Can tragedies be 'redemptive'?

[fevsmith]

I hear the term 'redemptive' bandied around in Christian arts circles. I understand what it means from a theological perspective, but how does this translate to the arts? Over on the Screenwriters' forum there is a 'Redemptive Film Festival' advertised - pre-requisite that films be family-friendly. Does that mean it has to have a 'happy ending'? No violence? No tragedy? Can a film still be redemptive but have the main character turn his back on redemption at the end? That would be a classic tragedy. In the Bible I see the story of the rich young ruler as just that - he is given an opportunity at redemption but turns it down. In a film I'm writing now, there will not be a happy ending. Can it still be considered 'redemptive'? It worries me that there are such hard-and-fast rules on what can or cannot be considered 'Christian-enough'.

[Shell-Bell]

Good Morning Fevsmith,

I don't know much about filmmaking, but it seems to me, that if someone learns something, no matter what the ending, whether it be happy or sad, I would call that redemptive. I can't really think of a whole lot of Christian movies that end sad, but I think that's because as Christians we should always have hope that things will get better, and that's the message most want to pass along.

There are plenty of bible stories that end on a sad note... or at least a less than perfect note... Gideon, who saved his people, foolishly vowed to sacrifice whatever came out of his house if he won the victory, and it was his daughter. The bible doesn't say she died, but she at least lived the rest of her life unwed and without children. Jonah, who warned a people to turn from their sins or be destroyed, was actually successful in his mission, except he wasn't angry that they weren't destroyed. Maybe these two examples are necessarily tragic, but they aren't happy endings, either.

I think the bottom line would be happy or sad, if your story makes an impact for Christ, who can argue with that?

[fevsmith]

Thank you Shell Bell. My film is not written for a Christian market but I still believe it has a redemptive message in that it shows the tragedy that happens when people are excluded, emotionally and socially. It also has an anti-racism message. I used to write solely for Christians (I still do when I write for the Christian press www.veitchsmith.com ) but since I've taken up scriptwriting again I now write for a secular audience. But each of my plays and films have something of God in them - if not His name directly, then his principles of grace, forgiveness, compassion and, yes, redemption. I must admit though this is my first piece that doesn't have a 'happy ending' and perhaps I'm feeling a bit nervous about it.

[DrRita]

Okay fevsmith . . . I totally understand what you mean. I agree with you and think that most Christian films (made by Christians) are not well written nor well made. (I will probably get whacked for this *sigh*)

I'm in the ACT ONE Saturday Writing Program (www.actoneprogram.com) her in Hollywood and our instructors (Christians) are working professionals in the industry here in Hollywood. On Saturday, Thom Pharham taught on exactly this topic. (Act One is very big on producing writers who are Christians but don't necessarily write "Christian" stuff)

Saturday he posed the very questions you ask and how to go about writing for the secular audience without them feeling like they are watching a Christianized version of "and they lived happily ever after" fairy tale or with gritty sin and redemption but a ton of preaching . . . Sermons do not make good films and you are definitely on the right track. If people are told they are sinners and mocked or judged for their wayward ways they will close their ears. But if we as Christians can identify, subtly reveal, share our own pain and unanswered questions then we might earn the right to speak to the unredeemed the need for redemption. (can you tell this is a subject I'm very passionate about?)

If hope is still given then your "un-happy" ending can still be a source of inspiration and conviction. But if you've had sin/evil win with no conviction or hope or need revealed then perhaps you need to change.

I would love to have more discussion on this subject of "redemptive" films. Thanks for bringing this up fevsmith!!

[Tarin]

Okay fevsmith . . . I totally understand what you mean. I agree with you and think that most Christian films (made by Christians) are not well written nor well made. (I will probably get whacked for this *sigh*)

Not by me. :rolleyes: Great post, Doc.

[Tommie Lyn]

Okay fevsmith . . . I totally understand what you mean. I agree with you and think that most Christian films (made by Christians) are not well written nor well made. (I will probably get whacked for this *sigh*)

You won't get whacked by me because I agree. I remember how disappointed I was by "The Last Sin Eater." I had heard quite a lot about it, we rented it.....and came away very let-down.

Sermons do not make good films and you are definitely on the right track.

I agree. And sermons don't make good novels, either.

Films and books in which there is an intentional message are turn-offs -- and believe me, those overt messages are quite obvious. However, if the author's faith and life view come shining through an entertaining story, that's a different situation. I appreciate it and can learn from it.

That's why I don't write "Christian" fiction. I write what I hope are entertaining stories, and my beliefs, being part and parcel of who I am and how I view the world, are embedded in my stories.

If a writer bares his soul and writes from his/her heart, of necessity, what he/she believes will be there in some form.

[DrRita]

fevsmith, great story idea. I am going to delete it, scramble it or something because I don't trust "guests" and outsiders here on CW not to steal this. It's risky even if you've registered it so bear with me. I will try to move it to the screenwriter's workshop where it's protected from probing eyes but can't promise that will happen.

I think the ending though sad is a story of hope, being freed by another (the cross?).

[DrRita]

I moved it to the screen & stage workshop.

[Katharine]

Good thoughts here. Does "redemptive story" mean the viewer/reader may be moved to repentance as a result of participating in the story? Or is the story itself a redemption message? If it's the former question (moving the heart of the viewer/reader) then that sounds like a sermon in story form, and it would be tempting to tack on an altar call at the end. If the question is the latter (quality of story) then maybe some of what I write could be called redemptive.

They made a movie out of The Last Sin Eater? Huh. I'm so behind the times, especially when it comes to movies.

Fevsmith, powerful story you've got there. Wow. And, yes, please protect it. Not only from prying eyes, but from feeble-minded folks like me who start daydreaming about where the story might go from there.

[fevsmith]

Ah, tempted to try on another writer's shoes are you Katharine? :) The last thing I would want to do is tag on an 'altar call' or make him repent of his sins. The reaction I want to invoke is in the viewer's heart - a question of what it means to be free. Dr Rita, thanks for moving it. I didn't think about it being pilfed, but you're right, it might. So, does the gay character and un-happy ending make it a no-go for a Christian writer?

[babaharry]

Hi fevSmith
I think many modern stories are devoid of redemption, because our post-Christian culture has so little hope! It seems the writer somehow cheats his creativity and the readers investment in reading that story,if there is no redemptive quality to the theme.

If you are writing from your heart and you believe your story / film script is worth publishing; write it! Political correctness and narrow doctrine based bigotry needs kicking into touch, so don't let theology without love stop you.

If God is with you, let the 'Pharisees' gnash their teeth, till their gums show!

Look forward to hearing more

BabaHarry

[Gina123]

I recently finished watching the series "Middlemarch" based on George Eliots book. It was very good and the 'lessons' in the story are easy to see although it never comes across as 'preachy'. Some characters change for the better, some fall into the pit they have dug for themselves, but overall the story is uplifting. I think I would put that film forward as a good example of redemptive without the altar all.

I did not go to see "The Last Sin Eater". I have read the book but it is probably my least fovorite of her stories. I believe "Atonement Child" would have been a great story to make into a film.

[Katharine]

Fevsmith, you caught me! You're saying I should find out a little something about your past before I put the shoes on? LOL!

I like how you're thinking about this. There's room for all kinds of writers and all kinds of stories, but I think your stuff is... well... not a happy, Christian film. You are going to make the viewers think and feel and respond, and that's important. This is the power of story.

Go with God!

[fevsmith]

Thank you everyone! I feel quite relieved. I must confess I was reluctant to 'come out' about my film on a Christian forum because I feared judgement. You guys have really helped - thank you! By the way, George Elliot was distinctly anti-Christianity and yet, I agree, there is incredible redemption in her stories. The Mill on the Floss is my favourite. By the way, I have previously written some very Christian stuff by anyone's standard!

[Tommie Lyn]

So, does the gay character and un-happy ending make it a no-go for a Christian writer?
I wouldn't think so. I think you have a powerful storyline (and, thanks, Dr Rita, for looking out for us, helping protect our ideas).

I'm not sure what it says about me, but most of my stories are bitter-sweet -- even the ones with "happy" endings have some element of sadness in them. (That may be why I gravitated to Norah Lofts' stories.) Life on this earth does have unhappy elements, bitter-sweet threads -- that's why we Christians look forward to a better place....

And I think the unhappy ending can be thought-provoking.

[Thebigguy]

I recommend two pretty good movies, the Ultimate gift and oh I forget the other one. But Ultimate Gift is redemptive but not preachy. The question is do you want an alter call like The Passion or plant seeds. Most Christian movies ARE like a sermon and people aren't able to receive that Amazing Grace was good and yet it wasn't frozen churchy.
I hope if someone body slams me over that one he's really skinny!

[DrRita]

Have you seen "Brokeback Mountain?" (disclaimer: I have seen it but for the record AM NOT recommending it. Viewer beware! Had to fast-forward a lot :eek:)

Okay, having said that . . . there was a ton of hoop-da-la about the film and how it glorified homosexuality. IMO it did not, instead it showed the tragedy of that life style and the people that were hurt by these two men. I would perhaps suggest you see it but first go to BB Mountain Review (http://www.starpulse.com/Movies/Brokeback_Mountain/) and check it out. You may not have to actually watch the film.

[DrRita]

One of the points that was brought up in our Saturday Class was "Why do Christians make such sappy films that are not very good?" So we explored some of the fears that Christians have.

1. We want to answer the questions we raise. We don't trust the Holy Spirit to lead a questioning mind.

2. We don't/can't face our own doubts as honest. We are afraid that if we let non-Christians see our own fears we cheapen the Christian message. On the contrary . . . non-believers need to see that we believe though we know not . . . and Christ is the focus not answers.

3. We aren't honest. We don't want people to see our ongoing mess. I'm not talking about what we once were, but what we ARE STILL. Christians want to present
SIN=REDEMPTION=MOST PROBLEMS SOLVED=UPWARD CLIMB TO MATURITY AND FAITH(ei arriving)

Okay before anyone bashes me, honestly think about all those Christian films you've seen and if they don't fit that pattern. Where is the Christian story where the person knows the Lord and struggles with sin, backsliding, doubt, fear and messy lives. What if this person is forced to face himself AS a Christian with all the faults and lack of faith that the disciples had? What if that person were us?

Anyway just some thoughts.

The Ultimate Gift was better than average but the best. I The best was The Passion because Mel Gibson didn't hold back on the messy ugliness of the Cross.

[michaelsnyder]

That's good stuff, Dr. Rita. If anyone starts bashing, I got your back!

And really, the only offense we as Christian artists should feel regarding the list you guys came up with is if we are indeed guilty ourselves. I make NO claims to having arrived yet (in fact, although my ticket's been punched, I'm not even sure I've made it to the station!).

Just like my life, my art is a work in progress. Rampant sanctification that permeates every area of our life and art (and work and marriages and...). One of the most repeated complaints of my first novel is that it asks more questions than it answers. And I just love that!

As for happy endings...I think both Christian and secular artists struggle with that one. I'm not against happy endings. It just has to be an inevitable and organic (and honest) resolution of the story being told. But I'm praying with a friend today about his daughter who just lost her kids because she can't quit taking drugs. If I told his story up to this point, it wouldn't be happy. And although some good things happened as a result, I do not accept my brother's death earlier this year as a happy ending. I do trust that God knows what He's doing. But I don't always have to be happy about it. And even though a lot of good has come from his premature passing, it's still a mess. It's hard and ugly and wrong...a tragedy to be sure. But we can rest that his story...like all stories...are still being told.

That's another reason, as overplayed as it can be, Flannery O'Connor is such a great example of telling the truth in fiction. We should write as honestly as possible, then getting out of the way and letting the Holy Spirit do His thing.

Mike

[Gina123]

Very good thougts, what an interesting topic! I am not a published author but I am a certified reader and what I want in a story is a SATISFYING ending. When I am reading for entertainment (fiction) I want to be transported to a place and time I will find interesting and characters who are real. Honestly I don't want the story to be a dirge. For instance I did not watch the film "Though None Go With Me" because I read the book and (as I told my sister) --none went with her---. Just too sad. Escapism is a motive for reading fiction and readers enjoy seeing someone overcome obstacles and learn to find happiness in their circumstance by finding that joy comes from looking outward and upward.. I enjoy seeing a character learn to stop looking in the mirror and start looking through the window.

[Tarin]

I'm not sure what it says about me, but most of my stories are bitter-sweet -- even the ones with "happy" endings have some element of sadness in them.

Most of my writing is the same way. The stories that have been memorable for me are inevitably the ones that ripped my heart. I've always had a bit of a difficulty putting into words why this is the case. But I ran across a quote (in an old college literature book actually) that summed up the matter pretty well. The chapter was discussing the differences between literary and commercial fiction, but I think the distinctions it mentions are just as applicable to any happy ending/sad ending debate.

We also bring different expectations to our reading of these two different types of fiction. When we pick up a commercial novel, we come to the book with specific, fixed expectations and will feel frustrated and disappointed unless those expectations are met. Depending on the genre, some of these expectations may include (1) a sympathetic hero or heroine - someone with whom the reader can identify and whose adventures and triumphs the reader can share; (2) a defined plot in which something exciting is always happening and in which there is a strong element of suspense (thus the term 'page-turner," often applied to a successful commercial novel); (3) a happy ending that sends the reader away undisturbed and optimistic about life; (4) a general theme, or "message," that affirms widely held, conventional views of the world.

By contrast, when we come to novel with literary intentions, we approach the work with a different set of expectations. For one thing, we are willing to expect the unexpected: instead of adopting a conventional way of storytelling, a literary author may create a unique style or angle of vision in order to express his or her artistic truth; and instead of a happy or conventional ending in which everything is tied together in a neat package, a literary work may end in an unsettling or even unresolved way, forcing us to examine our own expectations about the story itself, about the way story is told, and about our ingrained, perhaps unconscious way of viewing a certain topic or idea that may have been challenged or changed by what we have read. In short, when reading literary fiction we must keep an open mind and stay receptive to the author's imaginative vision, however different it may be from our own habits of perceiving and "reading" the world.

-Perrine's Literature: Structure, Sound, and Sense edited by Thomas R. Arp and Greg Johnson

In short, as Tommie Lyn pointed out, unhappy or bittersweet endings make us think.

[DrRita]

Michael,
Thanks for your own honesty. And thank you for writing the truth.

Gina, thanks for that last line, have to remember that one!

As for endings: Happy or sappy? Some endings are supposed to be happy but after you sit through (or read) one you just feel as though you drank a bottle of Log Cabin Syrup. What is happy anyway? Everyone has a smile, the guy gets the girl, the monster is destroyed . . . and the list goes on. Happy is not bad, it's not good it's just one kind of ending. I guess what I'm looking for in the end of a story is a hope--a possibility--an awakening . . . all these can occur with an un-happy ending and can still so inspirational. The best sermons (stories) are those which cause us to examine ourselves. This is the goal of a redemptive story. (Not all stories are redemptive nor should be) Jesus' life ended with an "unhappily" and though there was a resurrection we're still left with the task of self-examination which is what the message of the cross is all about. It's not cheap, it's not easy, it's costly. If we give the public stories of "cheap grace" as Bonnehoeffer so eloquently put it, then we do in fact cheapen the message of the cross. Neither should we put out he message that we must earn grace (as some secular movies have done) because that's a total contradiction. We need stories that portray the cost of grace and the hope of redemption. THAT is a story and we as Christians are the best to tell it because we've all had to walk that path. "Take up your cross and follow me," were Jesus' words. The cross is costly and it is totally not of me. If any scripture says how we should be seen in the world it's 2 Cor 4:4-12.

http://bestsmileys.com/religous/3.gif Whew, got a soapbox didn't I.

One last thought:

People (BOTH Christians and Non-Christians) continually question why God lets such terrible things happen. Non-Christians want to know why He lets things happen to humanity as a whole; for Christians it's usually "Why does God let such terrible things happen to me?" I have been thinking about this and I've finally come to the conclusion that we don't know how to answer that question. NOT what to answer because there isn't really an answer that satisifies, but what to answer. We come up with all kinds of excuses and explanations. But the truth (IMO) is that IF we finally just accept the fact that God lets bad things happen (Job) and it doesn't depend upon our behavior necessarily (yes, i believe sin has consequences) then we have to agree to trust a God who might and does let bad things happen to me. And how do I trust a God like that? How do I praise a God like that? Instead we try to make him into some other being who isn't God at all and present him to the world. Then when they believe in THAT God, they are totally blown away when he lets bad things happen. So our job is to somehow is to first accept the truth for ourselves, let God be who He really is in our lives and share that honestly and truthfully with the world.

[DrRita]

Great quote, Tarin. BTW that applies to movies too.

[michaelsnyder]

Yeah, I agree. Great quote, Tarin. Thanks for sharin' (sorry, couldn't resist my own Log Cabin rhyme there!)

Mike

[DrRita]

Just like my life, my art is a work in progress. Rampant sanctification that permeates every area of our life and art (and work and marriages and...). One of the most repeated complaints of my first novel is that it asks more questions than it answers. And I just love that!
Mike

Yes! !thumbsup!That is the best way for it to go. The answers need to be sought so they are honestly earned.



As for happy endings...I think both Christian and secular artists struggle with that one. I'm not against happy endings. It just has to be an inevitable and organic (and honest) resolution of the story being told. But I'm praying with a friend today about his daughter who just lost her kids because she can't quit taking drugs. If I told his story up to this point, it wouldn't be happy. And although some good things happened as a result, I do not accept my brother's death earlier this year as a happy ending. I do trust that God knows what He's doing. But I don't always have to be happy about it. And even though a lot of good has come from his premature passing, it's still a mess. It's hard and ugly and wrong...a tragedy to be sure. But we can rest that his story...like all stories...are still being told.


Wow, that is so tragic Michael. But as you say we can rest assured that the story is not over yet.

Great input Michael. Now I have to read your novel!

[Michael Scott]

Part of the problem I've seen is the belief on the part of writers that Christian stories must somehow be "evangelistic" - and by that I mean the stories are presented in a way that shows Jesus/God/Faith in the best possible light, like some used car salesman trying to convince a skeptical buyer what a deal awaits him! The result is that Christian fiction written this way comes across exactly as it is: unimaginitive, derivative, and false.

I suspect most of Christian evangelism is the same way.

Christian fiction will improve when we honestly evaluate and present the incredible cost and difficulty involved in following Christ. When we are honest about the difficulty involved in walking in the darkness of faith, not the pleasant light of certainty; when we are honest about the problem of evil and a good, all-powerful, loving God; when we are honest about why we need to fear (not respect, FEAR) God (Greek word is "phobia." If God is willing to kill His own Son to save me, what is He willing to do to me?); then we will have something meaningful to communicate that is truly redemptive.

We must be honest that the Christian life is the Via Dolorosa, the way of suffering. It is manifestly NOT a system designed to make me healthy, wealthy, and prosperous.

I suspect our evangelistic efforts would benefit from a similar refocus.

[Phy]

My favorite redemptive movie with a despicable 'protagonist' is the b-film "Pitch Black." The first 2/3s of the film are forgettable dreck, but the Vin Diesel character of the furion Riddick was surprised by grace.

Roger Ebert sets the scene:
The ship crash-lands on a planet that circles somehow within a three-star system, where at least one sun never seems to set, and the surviving crew members have to fight it out with the vicious and cunning prisoner Riddick (Vin Diesel).

You may remember Diesel from "Saving Private Ryan," where he was the hard-bitten Pvt. Caparzo. He looks like a mean customer, and he is. He shares no fellow feeling with the other survivors, expresses no responsibility to them, does not consider himself in the same boat and thinks only of escaping. Oh, and his eyes have a remarkable quality: He can see in the dark. Not a very useful ability on a planet with three suns and no night, right? (Hollow laugh.)

But instead of being the one-eyed king in the land of the blind, when night falls and all the chirring slashy things come out, we find that Vin's character is blind where it matters most, in things of the spirit. Riddick is truly menacing but forced to help people who otherwise would only see him as a threat. When push comes to shove, we know he will do what is best for him, and the rest of the humans be damned.

But Captain Carolyn Fry sees something in Riddick that isn't capable of seeing in himself, and her sacrifice to save him touches him, changes him, gives him a kind of sight that he didn't expect and couldn't fathom. It was the one thing that ever rocked his world, and her sacrifice for him paved the way for a truly startling redemption story, something I didn't expect in that kind of film. It's a cheesy, forgettable movie right up until the end, and then it reveals one of the great redemptive moments in cinema history.

The Count of Monte Cristo is another great example, but it doesn't manage the sheer gutwrenching impact of agape love demonstrated by Pitch Black. I was bitterly disappointed that the follow-up film, The Chronicles of Riddick, ignored that lifechange moment. I'm not remotely surprised, but I am disappointed. I wanted to see what this man could be capable of as a force for God.

[Tommie Lyn]

Most of my writing is the same way. The stories that have been memorable for me are inevitably the ones that ripped my heart. I've always had a bit of a difficulty putting into words why this is the case. But I ran across a quote (in an old college literature book actually) that summed up the matter pretty well. The chapter was discussing the differences between literary and commercial fiction, but I think the distinctions it mentions are just as applicable to any happy ending/sad ending debate.


Thanks for sharing the quote from the literature book, Tarin. It gave me food for thought.

As you said, the stories that stay with me, that make an impact, are those that rip my heart. They leave a lingering poignancy long after I finish them. And I suppose that has had a distinct influence on what I write and the way I write.

[Rozaroad]

Isn't the whole point of tragedy to be redemptive?

I think of tragedy as a technical term for a particular form of drama (or story I suppose) in which the main character suffers because of an innate flaw or circumstance he or she has no control over -- Hamlet's indecisiiveness for example.

From a Christian perspective, redemption if the result of either grace or good works. So, in the imagianry universe, as the reader as he or she suffers vicariously with the tragic figure in the play or story, he or she becomes aware of the possibility of redemption.

Great question.

[Katharine]

Interesting comments, all. I often compare literature to music, and writing to composing. It struck me that tragedy is like a musical work in a minor key -- darker, maybe sad, but rich and full and sometimes soaring to wonderful resolution. It's real life, not sugar-coated. These are the songs that resonate in my heart.

[michaelsnyder]

Great point, Katharine. Hadn't thought about it like that yet.

Mike

[pajarita_deDios]

Does that mean it has to have a 'happy ending'? No violence? No tragedy? Can a film still be redemptive but have the main character turn his back on redemption at the end?

I defintely think this is a question only the Author can answer, by simply asking God and then writing.

[DrRita]

Part of the problem I've seen is the belief on the part of writers that Christian stories must somehow be "evangelistic" - and by that I mean the stories are presented in a way that shows Jesus/God/Faith in the best possible light, like some used car salesman trying to convince a skeptical buyer what a deal awaits him! The result is that Christian fiction written this way comes across exactly as it is: unimaginitive, derivative, and false.

I suspect most of Christian evangelism is the same way.

Christian fiction will improve when we honestly evaluate and present the incredible cost and difficulty involved in following Christ. When we are honest about the difficulty involved in walking in the darkness of faith, not the pleasant light of certainty; when we are honest about the problem of evil and a good, all-powerful, loving God; when we are honest about why we need to fear (not respect, FEAR) God (Greek word is "phobia." If God is willing to kill His own Son to save me, what is He willing to do to me?); then we will have something meaningful to communicate that is truly redemptive.

We must be honest that the Christian life is the Via Dolorosa, the way of suffering. It is manifestly NOT a system designed to make me healthy, wealthy, and prosperous.

I suspect our evangelistic efforts would benefit from a similar refocus.


Well said Michael Scott! Just what we've been talking about you summed up very nicely. It's true, we must be honest, not cynical nor sugary but just honest.

Forcing a "message" on an audience or reader is like being given a free weekend at a nice resort and when you arrive everyone is herded into a large room where they have to spend the several hours on both days listening to a sales talk about buying one of the time shares. The vacation was nice but the sales pitches ruined it. If the company would have simply put out brochures, had people available to talk if the guests wanted information and let the people experience the glorious resort, they probably would have gotten more people to sign up.

[Michael Scott]

Yup. The irony is this: in all the church's refocus on Marketing the Gospel (which properly understood is not necessarily a bad thing), we've forgotten that 'bait and switch' is just bad marketing strategy no matter where or when it's used. Nobody likes it. Unfortunately, that's what most 'marketing of the church' comes down to.

I much prefer honest, gritty stories that show the difficulty of following Christ-the hurt and pain of the cross, and yet still proclaim 'It's worth it!' because of the glory to be revealed.

And redemption doesn't have mean the story has to have a 'happy ending' at all. Hebrews 11 talks about the 'hall of fame' of faith, and yet clearly declares that all these faithful people did not receive what was promised, so that it could be fulfilled in us. Their own redemption didn't happen by the time the last page was written in their stories. It happened in the afterword. To us.

Our fiction can (should?) reflect that, IMHO.

[fevsmith]

Wow, what have I started?????? Some very helpful thoughts. I particularly like Dr Rita's point about a film bringing about self-examination in the viewer. Even if redemption is not achieved by the protagonist (not achieved in the sense of 'works', couldn't think of another word) the film / story needs to still point to a redemptive path, even if it is not taken. A 'cautionary tale' as Chaucer would put it. There may not be hope for the character but there is still hope for the viewer. Excellent point about us always feeling we need to present Christianity in the 'best light' like a used car salesman, Michael. And I agree that Pitch Black is a redemptive movie. Not to mention dear Vin being a nice piece of eye candy!

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

Dr Rita, that resort analogy was pure comedy gold (and very true).