can you lie for the sake of the Kingdom??

[lawi]

This is weird but I thought came to my mind…today……. one day……….. three years ago I was going preaching to a Muslim in Army barracks and whenever am on the gate they ask me many question and I tell them the truth[ am having religious forum with a Muslim] and they let me inn..i remember this very important occasion I was to meet this Muslim but upon reaching the gate something inside me …a great conviction told me …don’t say what you are going to do ..so on reaching the gate I lied that am having academic discussions with the a friend student..then they did let me in we had a discussion and the Muslim agreed to go to church next Sunday[though not yet ready to denounce Islam] in fact he said if he had met me before converting to Islam he wont have done so and we agreed to hold other discussions later….now as we were moving out I noticed with shock that the guard at the gate was a Muslim and he couldn’t have allowed me inn [my Muslim friend told me]
I love missions and I do understand that if I have to go to Islamic nation and they ask me what I say I don’t have to say am a missioner but a teacher…social worker ..tourist blab la bla ….is it not sin? Can contradict the bible or what r we supposed to say …some thoughts please….idears..

Farewell

[Tamera]

That's an interesting question. I'm not sure I have the answer. I know Rahab lied and she wasn't condemned for it. Sometimes you can mislead without lying - just by not telling the whole truth.

I have some other kinks to throw in the works too. Can you lie to protect somebody's life - maybe a abused child? If somebody has a mental illness, can you lie to calm him down? What about spies or undercover agents? Is it okay to lie in the service of your country?

[ProfessorAlan]

I was just listening to a podcast about Blessed Miguel Pro, a Latin American priest who was martyed in 1927. He regularly dressed as a police officer to enter the jails to secretly administer the sacracments and otherwise minister to those in prison. He dressed in numerous other disguises to continue his ministry in a time and place when doing so openly would cost him his death -- which it eventually did.

[lynnmosher]

It occurs to me that the person to whom these lies were told were obviously not Christians. Possibly, going undercover for the Lord in situations like those mentioned, and many others, is implemented with the best intentions and with the end result in mind...bringing someone to the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.

What is in the heart of the one telling this type of lie? I'm sure forgiveness would be asked of the Lord. It seems to me that, to lie, in some circumstance requiring it, is the right thing to do, especially if one is asked to do so by the Lord. While this would seem to be confusing, obedience would be top priority. It is God's ultimate will to keep a Christian alive in whatever situation that one might find himself.

Also, in reference to Tamera's questions, I think the same thing applies. To whom is a lie told? What is the end result desired? If that happened to me, in any situation, I would have to follow that gut feeling, or the leading of the Spirit, and later to ask forgiveness.

I hope that made sense.

[kshsj777]

I would try my best to avoid lying as much as possible. In a case where someone's life was at stake I might lie. I think that in any of these kinds of situations, we should seek any and all possible alternatives before lying, such as merely not telling the whole truth, or considering if telling the truth is worth the consequences.

[jacks girl]

We used to have to make up little stories as i called them when Granny was alive and she had altimeters, We had to tell her all kinds of things to keep her calm.

she would want to know where papa was and he had been gone to heaven for a year at that point. So we would say he's sleeping, he's gone on a trip, he's gone on a trip with June a good friend who also had passed away.

i know that it is scating on the truth but there is many ways to say things that are not really lies. i would search my mind for ways to say things.

You could have said you were going to discuss cooking and them be sure that you did talk about cooking if only for a moment. Some times I know something i can not say or tell another person and i will say when they ask me... man I can't really say. they think i mean I don't know.. when I really mean I can't say cause it will hurt you or cause you ain't supposed to know.

There is ways of telling the truth even when it's not 100 percent truth.

[Tarin]

I'd go so far as to say that the Bible promotes lying - when it is done to save a life. Shiphrah and Puah, the Hebrew midwives, lied to Pharaoh to save the Hebrew baby boys, Rahab lied to save the lives of the two spies, Michal lied to save her husband David's life, David lied repeatedly to the Philistines to save his own life and that if his family and his men.

[lynnmosher]

Thanks, Tarin. I knew there were examples but could not remember them. My head is too fuzzy today with a headache.

[Tamera]

I'd go so far as to say that the Bible promotes lying - when it is done to save a life. Shiphrah and Puah, the Hebrew midwives, lied to Pharaoh to save the Hebrew baby boys, Rahab lied to save the lives of the two spies, Michal lied to save her husband David's life, David lied repeatedly to the Philistines to save his own life and that if his family and his men.

Good points, Tarin. I have never been one to believe that a lie is always a sin. When it's done to protect a life, to assist someone who can't understand the truth (like Jacks grandma), to get into a place to preach the Gospel, or a part of one's service to God or country, I believe it is sometimes, but not always, justified. And you just gave some scriptural precidences for that. On the other hand, the Word says let our yeahs be yeahs and out nays be nays. It does bring up some interesting moral delemas.

[Lookin^Up]

The actual commandment is not "thou shalt not lie," but "thou shalt not bear false witness," which has at its core the idea of perjuring oneself on the witness stand. In other words, bearing false witness is a lie to get oneself off the hook or get someone else on it, a deliberate deception that can be devastating or deadly to an innocent party.

But in the situations above, we're talking about a potential enemy, or enemies, who may commit a crime or cause harm to you or someone else. To avoid deception or some other evil, sometimes lying is the best option. Even God engaged in deceptions to keep His people safe; remember when Gideon's puny army of 300 was made to sound like a huge battalion? And He once blinded men's eyes so when they followed Elisha, they found themselves in a different town. In the case of Shiphrah and Puah, God actually blessed them for their lie.

So taking a hardcore view on lying is not very biblical. But I must emphasize: where we are not in an inimical situation where the truth could harm someone, or in a card game where keeping your hand secret is important, or throwing a surprise party for someone, the best policy is to always tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God.

[waiter]

Interesting question. The thought that comes to mind as an addition to the good comments made is, What is the greater sin? If it seems like you are violating being truthful, is the option worse in terms of perceived sin?
Re: the scriptures brought up in different circumstances I wouldn't necessarily say the bible promomes lying. It is however a faithful record of situations and circumstances.

I think the bible example I found most compelling is the one about the midwives.

[kshsj777]

Good point, waiter. I'd forgotten about that account.

[kshsj777]

LU, I believe there is a New Testament passage that speaks of believers not lying to one another. I don't if that means technically lying to unbelievers is permissible? Either way, lying should be avoided as much as possible, since we follow a God of truth and part of being Christians is that we bear witness to the truth. However, I agree that there is a difference between bearing false witness and lying.

[cpbookworm]

Good reply, Lookin^up.

[Lookin^Up]

Re: the scriptures brought up in different circumstances I wouldn't necessarily say the bible promomes lying. It is however a faithful record of situations and circumstances.
I wasn't saying the Bible promotes lying, Waiter, only that it shows certain situations where the usual prohibition can be waived in the interests of someone's safety.

[waiter]

Hi Lookin up, I'm sorry, but I wasn't addressing your post, but Tarin's. But thank you for bringing this up, because sometimes a lack of explanation(sometimes I explain too much) causes misunderstanding. I forget how easy that is. That's not my intention.

Tarin is saying the same thing that I tend to believe, which is that it seems that when a life is to be saved, God seems to have allowed a lie, as in the case of the midwives. And Tarin, I'm not suggesting you believe God/the Bible believes in/advocates lying. Only that the word "promotes" is not one I would use. However I know you do not believe that, only that you were seeking the best way to explain your point.

[Krezca]

I agree with you Tarin.All the instances you mentioned though involved saving a life:Samuel when he went to annoint David;Jeremiah at the command of the King. As my philosophy professor would say:"We dont owe all the truth to all the people all the time".

[Lookin^Up]

As my philosophy professor would say:"We dont owe all the truth to all the people all the time".
That's a great statement. I'll have to remember that.

[lawi]

!thumbsup! what wonderfull posts be blessed saitns ..at least am now convinved .....what a body of saits like you agree or disagree it is indeed.

[Patrik]

Hi, I don't think you lied when you told him that you should have an academic discussion, because that is what you had. I am a missionary who works in Russia and China and when I go to China I can't say what I am doing there. I say that I am a teacher and that is true even if they think that I teach English or something else but in reality I am teaching the Bible. I think that if we are open for the Holy Spirit He will give us the words to say.

God bless

Patrick

[ProfessorAlan]

Krezca, your philosophy professor was refering Aristotle, who defined honesty as "telling the right truth, to the right people, in the right way, at the right time, for the right reason."

Not everyone has the right to know the things they ask, and not every time or place is appropriate for a discussion of all issues. And of course, one's motivation (the right reason) is critical in all decisions. "Honesty" intended to hurt or ashame is not appropriate, for example.