Christians and Complacency (ho hum)

[Xenia]

Do you think that Christians should be more active when it comes to social issues that bring our society down? The list I could make would take too much time. You know what's on that list anyway. I had a pretty enlightening conversation with some Christians about activism and was surprised to find that most of them were very complacent... a kind of "we are not of the world, our only concern should be in sharing the gospel because salvation is the answer to all these problems". I know that salvation is the ultimate need but are we to turn our heads with a big yawn when we see social/cultural changes taking place that can be so detrimental. Should "good" people do nothing?! Sometimes I think it would be less stressful to just "poo-poo" the world. I pray but shouldn't we be active too?

[Phy]

I can't be bothered to read this thread. <yawns>

Ok, I'm kidding. I have some thoughts, but must now shower and leave for work. Tonight - tonight! ; )

[ProfessorAlan]

Since some of these issues (environment, poverty, racial reconciliation, etc ... ) have historically been associated with political liberalism, US evangelical Christians, whose leaders chose to associate themselves with poitical conservatives the last few decades, have not given the issues serious consideration.

But there seems to be a generational shift going on, as young evangelical leaders with different priorities and without the devotion to political solutions/power arise. Maybe when that nexus finally breaks, more attention will be paid to that type of issue.

[Xenia]

I can't be bothered to read this thread. <yawns>

Ok, I'm kidding. I have some thoughts, but must now shower and leave for work. Tonight - tonight! ; )

You are funny :D

Since some of these issues (environment, poverty, racial reconciliation, etc ... ) have historically been associated with political liberalism, US evangelical Christians, whose leaders chose to associate themselves with poitical conservatives the last few decades, have not given the issues serious consideration.

But there seems to be a generational shift going on, as young evangelical leaders with different priorities and without the devotion to political solutions/power arise. Maybe when that nexus finally breaks, more attention will be paid to that type of issue.

I'm not talking about leaders taking action (though I don't exclude them). I'm talking about every day people in every day life.

[Cymrugirl]

My husband and I have been talking about this for some time. We grew up in a church culture in which you paid a tithe by writing out a check for ten percent and no more, handed it to the preacher, and hoped he'd do good with it. It was like writing a membership due for the kingdom of heaven in the checkbook - and as long as you paid your ten percent to the church you could be a guilt-free Christian until your next paycheck. I know that this is a very base description, but I have personally witnessed well-intentioned individuals sucked into this type of disconnected cycle.

The problem that seems to create is that the Christian community does not seem to individually connect with the hurting. Sure, there are the one week emotionally driven missions trips - which seem to serve the temporary missionaries more than the place they travel to - but on a day to day basis, it seems that we (in our community anyway) have allowed the church to do the work for us.

Besides being approached with the invalidity of the tithe doctrine itself a few years ago, we've been praying about ways to make our giving more personal. We've been researching Christian organizations in our backyard and looking for ways to touch people directly rather than just writing a check and funding someone else's work (or just paying a light/air conditioning bill for a church building that's too large to begin with). I think how we give is as important as what we give. It effects us to constantly communicate with pained lives around us. There's a profound difference between paying someone else to feed the homeless and hurting, and going to the soup kitchen once a week and cooking a meal for them ourselves.

What's interesting, is that I'm beginning to hear this from a lot of Christians who seem to be "taking giving back."

[lynnmosher]

Xenia, I wrote a parable that seems to fit this. Let me know if you think it does...

Here’s a parable for you…God is the Owner, the Proprietor, the Manufacturer, and the Repair Department of His establishment. His Son ran the business for a while. However, He had to go on a long business trip and, in His absence, He transferred His authority and power to His beloved by signing the company policy over to her in blood. Leaving her in charge as the administrator of all His work, He commissioned her to act in His Name and invest on His behalf.

Using her authority, the bride is to run the Kingdom’s business, to watch the store, to be in charge of maintenance, to supervise the workers, to keep an eye on overhead, to replenish inventory, and to do all according to the Owner’s business plan that the Kingdom business might grow.

How then is the bride living up to her duty and responsibility? How is she spending her time while waiting for her Beloved Bridegroom to appear? Is she equipping herself? Is she a good manager of the Kingdom’s business? Well, let’s see.

Her schedule is so full of forty million activities that she doesn’t have time to read her handbook with her job description, and, consequently, she doesn’t even know how to behave on the job.

She is negligent to exercise her authority and to uphold the duties of her position. Her management skills are less than desirable, as she fails to keep an eye on her salespeople, for some are no longer persons of ethical character.

She lost the ability to manage the cash register and debt proliferates from her multiplicity of credit cards. Her advertising lacks appeal and promotes her own name. Her public relations people sometimes use questionable tactics, turning others away from the benefits of the business.

Her business practices are no different from anyone else’s. No longer seen as upright in character, she looks the same, talks the same, and acts the same as her competitors, who just laugh at her hypocrisy.

Her job is in jeopardy, for she is slowly forfeiting her business rights and she doesn’t even realize what she is losing. She is lax in asserting her influence, so the opposition flourishes while she is out on a coffee break.

Will the tactics of her biggest competitor cause the company to go bankrupt before she sits up and takes notice? Will he seize the property, rendering the business inoperable? What is she to do? It’s simple. She needs to follow the Manufacturer’s Instruction Manual! The Owner left it for her to read. Why doesn’t she follow it?

[waiter]

Hi,
Well, while some may see it as a cop out, I seem to think we should go back to the biblical blueprint of living a christian life.

That is, follow the scriptural standard. Which is what? Well, I am ashamed to say that after so many years as a believer I discovered in the last year something very simple yet very profound. That Christ is to be Lord all the time all the day and that I am on duty as a believer at all conscious times. I did not understand the degree to which we are called to be believers in this manner. I might have said before that such a life is not possible.

Well we certainly do not do it perfectly, but we certainly can embark on it, seeking to honour God in a real way in all aspects of our living, thinking, and speaking.By being willing to do the clear will of God that is before me on a regular basis in the details of life, would I not learn what God desires of me more and more as I walk this path? Whether that be social activism or whatever form of thing he wants me engaged in? I tend to think so. I know some folks believe that discussing the matter of "following the Spirit's leading" is a cop out. Well the fact is that just because some misuse or abuse the leading of the Holy Spirit does not invalidate that the leading of the Holy Spirit is a biblical principle.

The fact is, there are so many things that need doing in the world that I tend to believe we need really to know God in such a way that we hear clearly what he is suggesting we personally do in this world. How are we supposed to know on our own what to do when you have a myriad of problems that are overwhelming everyone everywhere at all times? We don't know how to walk where we should unless God reveals his will. We cannot know his will properly if we refuse to do the simple basic things in front of us daily hourly. I like the parable of the good samaritan. It shows what the will of God is. A question which haunts many people. But I think the will of God, while it can at times be hidden and needing to be sought out, is simple.It is the thing generally that is in front of you, the obvious. There are many things daily which confront us as the will of God. If I cannot bring myself to submit at such moments to take care of those obvious things, how will I grow in the knowledge of what I should be doing and where?

But some folks might think this is a too slow and too tedious path to follow and that certain things need doing and need doing now.Well, I tend to think that the scripture is true though, where Christ says, Without me ye can do nothing. We need as a first priority to honour him on a consistent basis, and we will be then I believe be poising ourselves for the best service we could offer, whatever form that may take.

I am a person who very much believes in understanding properly the mechanics of having a life with God that actually works for me first before bounding in all directions.I am not suggesting the lead post says we are to be bounding wildly in all directions. However, I know that as a believer one thing I have gone through is the guilt complex of not doing enough, etc. I have decided now that I will do my very best to know and walk in truth with God and that he will honour such a life and teach me best how to please him. And I guess the end goal for me is to please him. Which means I must know him first, I must understand what his mind is, and how can I do that if I do not have a deepening and real relationship of communication with him daily? Let others judge if they like the fruit of what that type of life looks like, but let me be sure to be doing my best to be honest and real with him, and truly seeking to honour him with a genuine effort and some real sweat on my part. I believe in this kind of life. I believe it produces the right kind of fruit in it's time. It is a process, but I see a certainty in it.

The life I formerly knew as a believer was one of caving in anytime it got difficult in any way, especially in the things concerning God.Don't think now I am suggesting I a saint of perfection. No, but I realize now if I truly want God's presence, which is the secret to service that brings forth real fruit, a commitment to obedience in all circumstances is simply the only answer.As I began to practice this principle the past 2/3's of a year, I began to experience the reality of God in a measure daily like never before in all the years of being a christian. And experiencing God I have found is the secret to seeking the welfare of others. God puts a desire in us for others in various ways as he indwells us in greater and greater measure.But this greater and greater measure can only be obtained by a commitment to walk with him and know him in truth when no one in the whole wide world is around, no one but God and me as we walk daily thru life.

Personally I have to agree, most of us as believers cop out and disconnect from the world. We have no real desire to save the world, let alone even ourselves or our families.We knock the world for being so bad, yet we know the truth but many of us sit or have sat in apathy. Christians can be great critics, but some of the greatest do nothings perhaps may be christians. I know, I have done my share.

Why? Well the only two reasons I can think of is unwillingness and ignorance. Unwillingness for the cost of a life lived solely for God and meaning the setting aside of our self will on a daily hourly basis.Or genuine ignorance of what God has called us to. Mine has been a combination of both. Unwillingness and ignorance. God knows which one was more dominant if at all. The important thing is I find great excitement in walking with God now. I try to apply the principle of doing what I believe is his desire in my life and not my desire or even my good ideas. God can actually communicate with us, but when a person is not in communication with him regularly, hearing his voice seems like a gargantuan task. Well if I asked you to do any highly skilled activity without any practice or exposure to it for a time, you would be truly over your head. And I think many of us as christians have practiced giving God a very small dose of right over our lives and then wondering perhaps how in the world do we hear him or get his leading or know what he wants.Well, there is a good explanation for all things, and after all these years I finally discovered that God wants to speak to me far more badly than I desire to hear him. Which has changed my view of God being an unwilling uncooperative type of God. From a distance of course it is no surprise that I would surmise such things about him. I wanted the cake and the pudding but wanted to give nothing in return, then wondered why God was such a mystery to me.

Now I hope Lynn you find something constructive in my answer, for I really do intend it be constructive. Like I say, I have discovered I love to know the mechanics of things first before anything, and I believe in regards to this, my life has happened on to the most important mechanical principles in the universe, which is this relationship with God that is working daily and hourly, not just once in a blue moon.

[Xenia]

Cymrugirl, I love what you had to say and Lynn I can really appreciate that parable. All the comments have been great!
Waiter, yes I find your comments very constructive... more than that even. I find myself so often lately in this stressful mode (fight or flight) over social/cultural issues. I am pretty active in my own way but have somehow become weary and I think (especially after reading your post) that I am in desperate need to fine tune my hearing Holy Spirit's leading! As you said...

The fact is, there are so many things that need doing in the world that I tend to believe we need really to know God in such a way that we hear clearly what he is suggesting we personally do in this world. How are we supposed to know on our own what to do when you have a myriad of problems that are overwhelming everyone everywhere at all times? We don't know how to walk where we should unless God reveals his will.

So true so true and I do feel overwhelmed! I cannot bury my head in the sand, be apathetic or ignorant of current events but I am so searching for that balance... to know what I should be doing and where. I want to be useful, directed and have some joy! You have so concisely spoken to my heart. You have been led on my behalf! Thank you so much for the time you took to post :).

[lynnmosher]

Waiter, Yes, your comments were constructively filled with truth.

...but have somehow become weary and I think (especially after reading your post) that I am in desperate need to fine tune my hearing Holy Spirit's leading!

For years now, I have been actively seeking to learn how to be aware of the slightest whisper of the Holy Spirit. I have come to the point in my walk that I don't want to do anything out of God's will. Of course, my mission fails occasionally, but I keep at it. I am still learning to pay attention to those nudges that seem to come out of nowhere, yet, when acted upon, prove to be God's leading.

Taking action in our society is necessary, if we do not wish to lose our rights, which we already are. This includes phoning or sending emails to our congressmen or senators or to others about issues for which we are concerned. Or are we just too blase to be bothered?

[Xenia]

Taking action in our society is necessary, if we do not wish to lose our rights, which we already are. This includes phoning or sending emails to our congressmen or senators or to others about issues for which we are concerned. Or are we just too blase to be bothered?

I do this a lot - keeping up with issues, emailing, informing others. My husband says I'll get us both killed one day for the stands I take (he's kidding). Who knows - maybe....and even more inspiration to be in God's will vs doing things in my own steam! My husband has said to me a couple times lately that he wants me to fast at least for a week my news sources. I think I might listen to him :). As Waiter said... I want to be willing to do the clear will of God! I want His balance. Remember when we were kids and your mom or dad (mine anyway) would have to forcefully grab your face in their hand and turn your head to see the thing they were trying to get you to notice?! This is what I feel God is doing to me!

[lynnmosher]

Being still before God and sensitive to His whisper, His heartbeat for others, is my greatest desire, for if I can learn to do that, I will be in the center of His will. I could give you many examples of how this has played out but I will give you the most recent.

My husband and I tried a new restaurant the other night. Nothing fancy. Kind of like a neighborhood family pub, if that makes any sense. We had a great turkey burger and fries, which we rarely eat. Anyway, we talked with the owner, a young man who just opened his first restaurant 3 months ago.

Unlike most restaurants, he makes everything from scratch, except for the fries, which he buys a deluxe brand. He uses a special seasoning on them. They were great! The burger was large and filling so I didn't finish my fries. That little voice told me to take them home. Now, this is something I have never done, take home fries, I mean. I didn't even know that I would eat them but I knew I had to ask for a to-go box.

Our waitress was the owner's wife. I asked for a box and had it sitting on the table when the owner came by to talk to us. He asked how everything was, and my husband told him that even the fries were great, as I was taking them home. This was a huge honor to him.

Now this is not a biggy nor is it a Christian jesture in essence or witness. However, it did do something for this young man. You may not think this is a very good example nor that it matters in the scheme of things. However, I acted out of obedience and the young man was encouraged.

If we cannot act on the little whispers and nudges of God, how will we ever learn to act on the bigger ones and be in His will?

[Xenia]

GREAT example!!! I love that. I have a similar incident I will share. It's similar in the fact that it too was a "little whisper". I hope I haven't told this before (I'm getting older and forgetful!)

I was at work doing "front desk" duty with the public. It's very busy. I was assisting this little old lady, trying to hurry her along so I could help the next person. Then came the "whisper" to my heart to slow down, to zero in on this lady, that she was my opportunity of the day. So after helping her I looked at her and asked... "Is there anything else I can do for you today?" and she stopped and looked me right in the eye and said... "you can pray for me". I told her that I certainly could and asked what she specifically needed prayer for. She told me and I reached over and held her hand, she closed her eyes and I prayed a quick silent prayer for her! It was the neatest moment ever. The atmosphere just seemed surreal to me. I knew that Holy Spirit was right there with us!

God is good!!!!!!!

[lynnmosher]

Bingo! That's exactly what it's all about! Listening to that Little Voice. I'll give you one where I didn't obey and it haunts me to this day. Many years ago, during a very financially challenging time, I was at the bank, taking out about the last $25 we had to buy food, and as I walked to my car, I overheard a man talking to another man, “Now what am I going to do? The bank will be closed until Monday. I won’t have any money.” For some reason, he could not get any money.

Wouldn’t that make you just rush right over and give him some? God prompted me to do so, but I never found out what the problem was, because I got in my car and drove away - to my shame and embarrassment. I thought if I gave him the last of my money, how would I feed my family.

To this day, I deeply regret it. I didn’t trust God and I never experienced His hand at work in that situation. God was trying to bless someone through me and teach me something, but I didn’t listen. Blessings were lost for both of us.

Governed by the senses or natural instincts, the carnal person hears not the Holy Spirit’s whispers to give and receives not “the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Cor. 2:14 Greek Text)

[Xenia]

God still used your experience for good... it quickened you to his voice ;).

I'm suddenly very comfy-cozy... I think it's my bed time... night night..

[T M Cart]

This was a brilliant discussion. Absolutely brilliant.

The ability or, rather, willingness to listen to God's leading is as relevant a topic as they come. The Son of God calls us, not only to listen but to act. We are His ambassadors to the lost and suffering. We carry His messages to and fro. We are the willing servants of the King.
We must simply be willing to act, on His behalf, in any situation imaginable regardless of how uncomfortable it makes us.

Very Respectfully In Christ,

T M Cart
www.truthinministry.org

[Cymrugirl]

Taking action in our society is necessary, if we do not wish to lose our rights, which we already are. This includes phoning or sending emails to our congressmen or senators or to others about issues for which we are concerned. Or are we just too blase to be bothered?

I'm so glad lynn brought this into the conversation - because my own personal context (something you guys would understand if I could detail it more) has been leading me, in this complacent christian vein, to the following question: What are Christian rights?

Biblically, is that a paradox? I'm beginning to feel that it is.

As an American Christian, I've grown up in a world that seems to equate Constitutional rights with God-given rights. But doesn't God say that those in power are there because of Him? What rights do we have under God's law are unalienable? Our constitution recognizes pursuit of property - is that something God gives us all the right to pursue?

Sometimes it feels that Christians in America pursue Constitutional rights (which are by no means Scripture) more than they pursue Scriptural promises or commands.

Does anyone else feel like this?

Can I really say, outside the realm of man-made law, that another person has no right to take something away from me? that he has no right to make me pay a certain price for his product? that I have the right to own x, y, and z? that I have the right to wear gold symbolic jewelry to my workplace or other? Do we have the right to proselytize in a public-paid setting, but the school dare not have a copy of Harry Potter in the library?

I'd like to hear your views on this because it's been troubling me. Where do we draw the lines between acting in the name of God and acting in the name of free citizenship - essentially bargaining our citizenship within the context of a three branch governmental system?

It seems to me that the apostles never talked about their rights the way we do. They just broke laws and said 'it's better to obey God than men,' took their beatings, jail time, etc., and continued to do God's work no matter the price. I wonder if we put as much effort into reaching the lost as fighting a government which really has nothing to do with the kingdom of God, if we'd make a bigger difference?

[T M Cart]

it seems to me that the apostles never talked about their rights the way we do. They just broke laws and said 'it's better to obey God than men,' took their beatings, jail time, etc., and continued to do God's work no matter the price.

The above is an important thought and one that I agree with. In my own observations, I've come to realize that many of us Americans are enchanted with the idea that we hold the lion's share of anointing when it comes to a Christian national identity.
There is a sizable portion of the American Christian population that erroneously equates our system of law as tantamount to scripture. Like it or not, the mindful Christian must decide which law is the more important when faced with a dilemma whereby the two are at odds. This is an eventuality.
While our country may have been founded with the best of Biblical intentions, as a nation we gave up the moral high ground long ago.
What does the Bible say? Yes, Romans does talk about submitting to the law of the land. I concede the simplified point. However, keep in mind how terribly complex Romans is. It is a book dripping with period related context, much of which could be argued as anachronistic.
My initial advice would be to stay in the Bible for your source, and test it with prayer and discussion, just as you are doing.

Very Respectfully In Christ,

T M Cart
www.truthinministry.org

[waiter]

T.M.,
Hear and do. That is probably the most simplified way to view this thing I think. I agree, we must hear but we must also act as you say on what we hear. How important are both. I always, because I find it to be what I naturally gravitate toward, zone in on the first thing, because without that first thing, nothing else is possible. So to me, the hearing of what God is saying is the most important thing we can do in this life in the present moment. Because if we do not hear what he is saying, what he desires, we are left to our own devices, our own best ideas. We then get into human programs, human ideas, and the supernatural is left out in the cold: God really, being the one left out in the cold.

If man is not to live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God, it shows the degree to which our lives are to be ordered by the direction, influence, and presence of God. It is a literal statement, but generally we as believers are perhaps not used to seeing it that literally. We can tend to spiritualize a lot of things like this and separate the spiritual word there in scripture from the physical life we live.When instead God actually wants us to incorporate that word literally into our life, our physical life, and experience what that looks like and what that does to our theology. If any person begins to take the scripture literally where it should be taken literally, what occurs is a busting loose of their theology more and more as the emphasis shifts from theory and theology only,to the word being made flesh in our very own lives and suddenly we begin to see God, his word, ourselves, others, and this whole existence in this world differently.

I'm not talking about something wacky though, or something so ethereal and out there that there is no practical application in real daily living. But one look at the example of Jesus in the gospels reveals a life that was based first and foremost on relationship with the Father and hearing and seeing things in the realm of the spirit and then simply following the direction of those leadings and revelations into the practical realm of the physical. And what we see is a practical demonstration of the miraculous in Christ's words, which displayed an authority and authenticity that was recognizable by all the hearers who could not deny the power with which this man spoke even if they took the position of being opposers and enemies; then we see the miraculous in terms of healings and deliverances from devilish and real oppression.

But in the church in some segments and some denominational strains, we see that this gospel, which is the real gospel, has been denuded of the supernatural and power aspect. Which all comes from the personal relationship of oneself submitted to a God and to his eternal nature and not putting our own boundaries and limitations of what should and can be the rule of the whole thing. The Pharisees, the Saducees, and other groups were about controlling the system, and in the end while professing to be the greatest followers of God turned out to be the greatest opposers. They were so stiffnecked that they could witness incredible miracles and deliverances and hear words of truth and power from Christ, and yet not bat an eyelash, but rather, convene a meeting and meetings on how best to kill this guy who was disturbing their comfortable position of being in control and receiving the emulation of the people.

Some people who are believers are afraid of the doctrine or idea of hearing God and they cite abuses and tragedies which have resulted among those who claim to hear. Well, once again, abuse of a knife or a fork does not illegitimize the knife or fork. Years back I noticed that in the cloth towel container in public washrooms a certain safety feature was added,which made it more inconvenient to use the cloth towel to wipe with after washing, and this feature was added because one child had hung himself on this thing.

The death of this child caused a change in the whole construction and practical use of the towel rack/container, and yet one asks, what does the misguided mind of one child have to do with the rack and how it was initially constructed to work, and to work well? Well, nothing really. But that shows the mindset that does not think things through. The same with hearing God.TGeat abuses have occurred by wacky individuals who have claimed to hear God and instead have heard the devil. But we should not then make the hearing of God's voice as a common and the most important feature of being a christian, a doctrine of demons. The same with the Holy Spirit. We need the word of God, we need the Holy Spirit, and without this, you have nothing but a dead lifeless theology which you know yields nothing but wrong thinking causes one to believe it is still an obligation to carry as a banner this lifeless type of religion because one thinks there are now real answers anywhere else to be found.

This is where so many denominational strains are, and where so many individuals everywhere are who are genuine christians, but have never zoned in on and been instructed in the real way that has real life and a real God in it. We were not meant simply to be robots who minister to others but are ourselves dying from lack of water at the same; saviing the whole world but our own soul is withering. That is what a theology and practical religion does to a person where God is not experienced as the water of life to satisfy first our own cravings, and then be shared with others. Increasingly more methods abound to compensate for the lack experienced when not knowing how to access God directly and personally daily. We need God, and to hear his voice is life, and out of that life and liveliness coming into us, we are empowered in the will to desire to move our body and our life out to others as directed by the Spirit of the Lord. To me this is what it's all about,and it is something developed and refined as we learn better and better how to walk with him and how better to hear him. But what better thing to learn or practice daily? I'm always so terribly sorry for my ridiculously long posts, but my this stuff gets a fire going in me. Having lived so many years, and I mean many, in the cold and not understanding the truth properly as a human being and especially as a believer, I am so grateful for God being kind enough to show, hey, this is how it works and it works great! And it does!

[DrRita]

I'm so glad lynn brought this into the conversation - because my own personal context (something you guys would understand if I could detail it more) has been leading me, in this complacent christian vein, to the following question: What are Christian rights?


I'd like to hear your views on this because it's been troubling me. Where do we draw the lines between acting in the name of God and acting in the name of free citizenship - essentially bargaining our citizenship within the context of a three branch governmental system?



I know I don't get over here much but I must say this is a great discussion!!! One that is much to my own concern.

I think we tend to look at Christianity through our own cultural eyes. In this country where we have freedoms most counties don't have, we tend to think they are our "rights" and no one should take them away. But in the context of scripture Paul admonishes believers in 1 Cor. 6:19-20: " Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s."

We have no rights, period. We belong to Christ and he is the owner of us. When I owned my house in Gig Harbor, I did with it what I pleased. But we sold it to a school teacher and moved. I have absolutely right to do anything to that house now. It doesn't belong to me. It's the same way with me, I signed the deed of me over to the Lord (Romans 12:1-3) and now I have no right to do what I want. I belong to the Lord, he holds the title.

As for being being active, I liked what TM Cart said. We need to first be the Lord's and then be obedient. We can't pick what we want to do, it's not our call. Only God has that right. If he wants me to picket the porn shop down the street or write my congressman about the marriage laws, it's for Him to tell me.

As for American Christianity, what disturbs me most is that we have lost our credibility in this country . . . not because we are not active or too active but because we live immorally (I'm speaking in general terms). We talk a lot about homesexuality or abortion or pornography but when it comes to living a life that is exemplary, look around and most of our churches don't even talk about sin much less expect something like a walk that glorifies God. We've become so "seeker friendly" we have allowed every sort of worldliness into the church. I think that's where the issue lies, cleaning up the church and getting back some sort of respectability. THEN maybe we can reach out and actually have an impact. If we were following the Lord, we'd be doing what He wants.

Okay, I've preached enough here. Just some thoughts. Seek first the Kingdom of God and all these things will be added.

Thanks for this thread!! Great thoughts from all of you.

[waiter]

Dr Rita,
The concept of ownership by Christ of us is critical. If I truly believe that, then I will not believe I may do as I please when I please. It will govern my whole being, my thoughts, my words, my actions,and the whole course of my life. This is the scriptural concept of loving willingly with all one's being at all times.A life then not of my will, but God's will. The practice of this life results in holiness and in God's reality being manifest thru us. But no obedience, no total surrender, and therefore no power against sin, and no power to be witnesses. And Israel's problem in the O.T. was that through their practices and their ways they brought dishonour to God's name. Isaiah 58:13-14 I believe speaks about not speaking our own words, choosing our own way, finding our own pleasures. This is a life of self sacrifice and denial and of course there is resistance to choosing this way. It is the way against the grain of all things, including even our own grain, and so of course it has inherent in it difficulty. There is no way around the natural difficulty of such a way. But it is the way that honours God and also produces holiness, and then we have a legitimate witness that occurs to the world as holy vessels bring the gospel in different ways to the world.

The answer to the dilemma has never been complicated. The confusion comes by a refusal to submit wholly to God. The O.T. pattern reveals that the critical problem identifiable in Israel as a nation was disobedience. It was never the problem of Gee, we just don't understand what you're trying to tell us Lord, can you be a bit more clear?

[DrRita]

You're absolutely right waiter. We need to be given over to the way of the cross.

I just had another thought. Jesus was condemned by his own in part because he wasn't politically active. The Israelites expected a King who would take over and root out all the evil in the world. One who would stand up against the Roman government and take over. He was a King but not of this world. I don't think we should be ostriches by any means for we need to be involved in our communities and in our neighborhoods. But clearly, it's not the top priority. I have a dear friend who has been called to the political arena. She's a wonderfully gifted politician who genuinely cares about people and the political system and feels God has her there as a watch person and witness. I whole heartedly support her. I have been called to get involved in Hollywood. Not everyone's cup of tea and certainly not somewhere I would recommend a person get involved unless called! But it's my calling. Each of us has one. It's our job to seek the Lord until we find it.

[ProfessorAlan]

and trying to fit our priorities as Chrsitians into a two-party US system that was not designed to reflect the priorities as Chrsitians is nigh impossible .....

[Cymrugirl]

Thanks for opining guys. DrRita, does your friend in the political arena ever feel it difficult from time to time to exist inside the political arena without compromising her beliefs? Do you in Hollywood?

Christians in a 'house' run by unbelievers is not a new thing - and it's necessary - but it can often create dillemmas for those in that position. I loved Francine Rivers for exploring the psychology of a Christian who was forced to be a gladiator in ancient Rome. How's that for a dillemma? Sounds so far away, and yet, I know young men and women serving in their country's military must feel the same way sometimes.

Perhaps some complacency is born out of not wanting to be in this constant struggle to discern one's place employed in the work of the world. It would be easier for me to be clergy. According to a recent statistic, clergy think so too. I've done both - and while the ministry is tiring - the questioning of one's involvement with one's own job as a moral dillemma really never comes up. I have, at multiple times, felt myself at a line where I wanted to walk away - and some of my coworkers have experienced this. We just pray about it, and seek God, and so far, have felt we are supposed to stay. But it's hard. There is the internal fear that we are arriving at this conclusion at times because it is, in these economic times, the easier solution.

Discerning the me from Thee can be difficult sometimes.

[DrRita]

My friend has struggled as you say with that issue in the past. She didn't compromise her beliefs and was often mocked and ridiculed, blackballed and called lots of ugly names. But she stayed true.

For me, it's a season in my life where I don't know if I could compromise my beliefs. That's why I struggled so with the Lord over this issue of coming to Hollywood in the first place. I didn't want to have be put in that position. I've been in ministry too and to tell you the truth, this is easier! Again, it's being where you are called. Jobs, the ministry, relationships-- are just training courses. God most always puts us where we are not comfortable, where we must pray and struggle and make choices, where we will learn the lessons about living and our relationship with him that we won't learn where we are comfortable. The Christian walk is hard! It's not for wimps. Most of the time we think in terms of doing for the Lord when He is most interested in being for him. It takes a lot of bruised knuckles and bloodied fingers to let go of ourselves.

[T M Cart]

The Christian walk is hard! It's not for wimps.

Well said, DrRita and well done to all of you. This is a topic that I am passionate about. To be used of God is what we say we all want. We pray and we worship; lifting our hands and petitioning to be useful...until we get a glimpse of where He wants us. In the small hours of the morning, alone with our thoughts, we all are faced with the decision to either carry out His plan, or our own. How many of us have heard people say things like "I'm just not called to minister to that group of people." Really? Is that honest? Or is the statement, in fact, a response to the urging of God to act on something?
There is a great deal of freedom in obedience to God's leading; even if, at the time, we can't see it. He knows us better than we know ourselves, including the things that will give us the most fulfullment in our lives. Consider Paul the apostle.
I often wonder how, once imprisoned, Paul regarded his various travels. Faced with his imminent death, was he a man satisfied? He must have felt like a spectator in his own life. Once a mover and shaker, authoritative bible scholar and respected leader; reduced to a common vagabond, carrying the light of the Christ to all he encountered regardless of his own personal dignity, reputation or physical safety. Yet, he did so with joy and celebration.
It all boiled down to a single moment of choice on the road to Damascus. He heard Jesus and He obeyed. He didn't have to. There were, at hand, two possible futures. One future saw the imprisonment and the likely deaths of still more innocent Christians at the hand of a driven, murderous tyrant. The other future saw the acceleration of a spiritual wildfire that is still spreading today.
God waits; waits for all of us to make the choices that connect us to the people He has set apart for us in our lives. Who waits more than God? Yet, for all of his sovereignty and supreme power, He will always allow us to resist His will. It is His perfect gift to us...the ability to say no to Him. Not a single star in the universe or messenger in heaven can say the same. How much more does He honor those who choose to obey His leading when, at the time, it makes no discernable sense to do so?
I suspect that if it were possible to talk to Paul today, he would be tearfully delighted to give you the answer.

Very Respectfully in Christ,

T M Cart
www.truthinministry.org

[waiter]

Cymrugirl,
I suspect Francine Rivers exploration of the psychology of the christian forced to be a gladiator must indeed be fascinating as you say. What a position to be in.

Re: the constant struggle, my experience in actually trying to walk out a cross carrying life has found it be the most challenging thing I have ever done or ever will do I believe. I unequivocally say it is the hardest thing anyone can do, for a couple of major reasons. First, to remain open to God and not shut the door, as a non committed life decides to do when there is difficulty or incotnvenience, is not an option, it is an absolute must. To remain honest, and God points out where we are not, takes I believe courage and sacrifice. To maintain a relationship with God daily hourly takes great sacrifice. Only people who actually attempt to walk out a life where they try to keep God in front of them at all times discover the challenges in such a life. But then again, only such people discover also the life or manifestation of Christ promised in John 14:21.

I mean, just try and keep the same pen for two weeks and see the challenges in that. So I just see that the christian life has incredible challenges and difficulties and opposition to it. Everything in the universe will seek to pry us apart from God, from the smallest to the biggest things or people. I know the Lord has said to me to at all costs and at all times protect my relationship with him-guard thy heart with all diligence for out of it are the issues of life. So out of this I then see and say, Well Lord, you have indeed called me to quite a warfare.

I get tired and sometimes you feel alone in seeking to be obedient to the calling you believe the Lord puts on you, for no one fully understands your position like the Lord though he does give us comforters and true friends in the way. However I always hear the Lord saying, Men ought always to pray and not to faint. I hear him always calling for my best effort. What I know now is that even if there is a sliver of effort showing my will being given to him and the rest of me is fainting at the moment, God is honouring that. He is very gracious then, not looking for perfection, but for realness and truthfulness. He knows if we are weakened and he only asks us to give what we can,not what we can't.

I find then that my view of him is changing constantly. I find more and more he is gracious and wants me to succeed and not fail. This understanding draws me closer and I want to give more then. It is a developing thing. The world may judge my outward life, but what truly matters is that there is something inside between me and God that is real and true and that is being developed with as much of my will that I can give during every minute of every hour, and this life will bear fruit in some fashion. We literally have to forget about everybody else in the world and act as if it is just us and him. This is the challenge I find.

We are alike. We are all weak in ourselves. The great thing I think is how much one believes into the Lord's goodness toward themselves individually, like David who said Thy gentleness hath made me great. The more of the love demonstrated in the cross I can accept the free-er I become from me and the greater I become in him and for him. Most of us struggle or have struggled with the rejection inherent as a byproduct of sin. the work of Satan is aimed primarily at this very point in the soul I believe. It is a very convincing work, for sin indeed is present as a part of our past especially and in the present too, and he is able then to work condemnation against a soul and of course this brings defeat in varying degrees.But the work of the cross shouts the acceptance of God thru Christ's forgiveness extended to us. Most foks take it at an initial point but then neglect it after. But we are in constant need and are urged to take or seize(violently, unashamedly, as Christ pointed out about the kingdom being taken by the violent and them taking it by force) the forgiveness and cleansing and acceptance and love found in the blood of Christ. We are never self sufficient or grow to such a point that we need to feed less on this critical aspect.

My, and I believe all our, great challenge is then who we listen more to. Do we listen to the desire of the flesh and to Satan's subtle leading to lure us there and then condemn us for it, or do we open to the Holy Spirit and listen to him and receive the healing work of the blood every chance we get? It is amazing that the work of Satan against us to condemn seems so right and so logical because we do come from sin and we do indeed at times sin still. His is a very convincing work and he is so good at this ministry of condemnation and slander. But Christ's work is not logical and does not "seem" right or sensible in the logical sense. We are built naturally as a result of our sin heritage to believe in the principle of work=reward, and it is very hard for us to believe otherwise or accept. Christ's work of the cross is a gift of life which must be constantly received if one would get thru all that stands in the way of their path. One must rely on the blood of the cross and the forgiveness there. But this is hard for us, it is also very humbling and illogical. However, anyone who dares accept forgiveness like a hungry animal literally, will I believe find God has no bones about us taking it and allowing it to build us into holy people. I'll stop because as usual I get carried away in length, but I just think it is so vital to understand the principle not only of cross carrying, but of the forgiveness of the cross which enables the release of the will to carry any cross for the Lord's sake.
God bless you all