Question about POV & tense 'preferences'

[michaelsnyder]

Hey guys and gals, I'm curious about something...

I've read several times recently that some readers are predisposed to dislike certain POV's/tenses right off the bat. In other words, he/she will notice a story is told in first-person/present tense and know automatically that he/she won't like it.

How about you? Are you prewired to like/dislike certain tenses or POV's? If so, which ones?

Thanks.

Mike

[Gravity]

POVs, not so much. But personally I'm not a fan of present tense. I dunno why. It just seems to pull me out of the story somehow, rather forcefully pointing out that I'm reading something. Which is the numero uno kiss of death for fiction, IMHO.

But I know others who have a completely different take on this. I suppose that's why we have more than one flavor of ice cream. :D

[wowreallylongid]

I am partial to 3rd person narrative. I can deal with 1st person. But those strange 2nd person stories/poems out there...yuk! You you you...it's just all about you, isn't it?! :D

[Timber Wolf]

I normally dislike 1st person - unless I know the author from other books, then will try. I read some 1st persons, not having read the author before, and hated them. Since then I tend to put unknown author's back on the shelf if I see the books are written in 1st person. I may go back and try the book after I try something else by the same author.

I think it is just personal preference a lot of times, but there are good books out there about the pros and cons of the various POVs.

[Tamera]

Most of the time, I like 3rd person. The exceptions are mysteries and short stories where 1st person works sometimes. I don't like second person. I also like my stories in past tense, not present tense. Like Gravity said, present tense reminds me that it is a story that I am reading. I want to be lost in the story.

[wardog25]

3rd person/past tense seems to be what most people like.

2nd person reminds me of those "choose your own adventure" books from childhood.

Present tense reminds me of poetry. (which is fine if you are reading poetry, but annoying if you want to be reading an exciting story)

[Tarin]

Depends entirely on the story and the way it's told. Generally speaking, I like 3rd-person/past tense because it's more forgiving than the other options. I have read some absolutely amazing stories told in 1st-person/present tense - but I've already read some crummy ones. If everyone could write brilliantly in 1st-person/present tense, I suspect that would be my favored POV, but for now I'll have to stick by the old stand-by. :cool:

[michaelsnyder]

Thanks for the feedback guys. This is very interesting to me. But if you'll indulge me, I'd like to get a little more feedback...

When you're trying to decide what to read next...do you go more with the back-cover synopsis? The first paragraph? Would you actually flip to the first chapter, check for POV and tense, then put the book back on the shelf if it were, first/present and you're more of a third/past kinda reader?

Or if a trusted pal recommended something without mentioning POV/tense, would you just dive in? Or would you still consider your preferences before investing the time?

Oh, and another thought...how much bearing (if any) does this have on your buying decisions? Obviously, it's easier to take a chance on a less preferred voice at the library. But would a first/present (seems to be the least preferred of all the more common voices in this discussion?) voice be enough to keep you from buying it?

Sorry, I know that's a lot of questions. But I'm looking more for opinions and discussions than blow by blow answers. Just whatever you're thinking...

And thanks again!

Mike

[righter1]

I'll answer your first question (original) now, and come back later for the second batch.

I prefer to write in past tense, usually 1st person, but occasionally 3rd person. I'm actually fairly comfortable switching between the two. I also don't have a preference for reading the same, although present tense tends to bother me a bit more than past. I just as frequently read 3rd person stories as first. :)

[Tarin]

When you're trying to decide what to read next...do you go more with the back-cover synopsis? The first paragraph? Would you actually flip to the first chapter, check for POV and tense, then put the book back on the shelf if it were, first/present and you're more of a third/past kinda reader?

POV/tense would never influence my decision. I rarely browse shelves, but when I do the synopsis and the front cover are the factors most likely to grab me.

Or if a trusted pal recommended something without mentioning POV/tense, would you just dive in? Or would you still consider your preferences before investing the time?

A vast majority of my reading is the result of someone else's recommendation. And, again, POV has no bearing on my decision to read it.

Oh, and another thought...how much bearing (if any) does this have on your buying decisions? Obviously, it's easier to take a chance on a less preferred voice at the library. But would a first/present (seems to be the least preferred of all the more common voices in this discussion?) voice be enough to keep you from buying it?

I very rarely buy books I haven't already read and loved. But if I was desperate to read a book that I could find at the library, POV wouldn't affect my choice at all.

[Gravity]

I'm with Tarin. In a perfect world, the story should dictate the POV...they should fit together "like peas and carrots", to quote Mister Gump. So what draws me to a novel isn't so much the POV, if it seems to fit.

What I look at is first the back cover copy, then the first page, and finally--as I thumb through--the "white space" (the ratio of prose to dialogue). That sounds like a lot of nitpicky stuff, but studies say most readers will go through the above motions in a minute or two. That's why a novel's writing has to grab me from the jump; if not, back on the shelf it goes, and my hand reaches for the next one.

[Merry]

Mike, you're doing your tax form right now, aren't you?

[wgjones3]

POV and tense. I can honestly say I've read a lot more bad fiction than good in any given combination of POV and tense. I don't mind the tense and POV, it's good writing that keeps me hooked and engaged.

I guess the answer to your follow-up question, for me, would be the first paragraph. Cover copy often lies and I don't generally trust reviews, but if the first paragraph hooks me, I'm usually able to carry that momentum through to the last page of the book.

Take, for example, the opening to one of my favorite books ever:

No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; yet larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream. Hill House, not sane, stood by itself against its hills, holding darkness within; it had stood so for eighty years and might stand for eighty more. Within, walls continued upright, bricks met neatly, floors were firm, and doors were sensibly shut; silence lay steadily against the wood and stone of Hill House, and whatever walked there, walked alone.

Shirley Jackson, The Haunting of Hill House


The actual sentence construction here is awful. It's long, the language is rigid, there's a formality and even a sense of rhetoric that just isn't attractive in fiction. But the voice is so moody, the impetus so clear that it creates forward momentum. At least for me. YMMV.

As Brandilynn so often says, story rules. And for me, the resonance of the author's narrative voice is what--more often than not--makes or breaks a story for me.

[jacks girl]

When you're trying to decide what to read next...do you go more with the back-cover synopsis? The first paragraph? Would you actually flip to the first chapter, check for POV and tense, then put the book back on the shelf if it were, first/present and you're more of a third/past kinda reader?

Most of the time when I'm buying books I go for the author I know, Grafton, Parker, Oake. when I'm buying romance I go for the covers first cause I don't know many authors. Its the front cover that gets my attention or the title. I will not buy a book that is in first person unless it's a auto bio by someone. I do read the synopsis on the back cover then buy or move on



Or if a trusted pal recommended something without mentioning POV/tense, would you just dive in? Or would you still consider your preferences before investing the time? I would always check out the book first before buying it i'm a very picky reader

Oh, and another thought...how much bearing (if any) does this have on your buying decisions? Obviously, it's easier to take a chance on a less preferred voice at the library. But would a first/present (seems to be the least preferred of all the more common voices in this discussion?) voice be enough to keep you from buying it? Yes i will not buy a first person romance or mystery it would surly stop me from buying one


Great Thread

[David Meigs]

I prefer really well written first person, but I’d never choose a book based upon the POV. As far as selecting a book, I like to checkout the back cover and then read the first few pages.

[michaelsnyder]

...for indulging my questions and chiming in with thoughtful responses. I really didn't expect a consensus--which is a good thing.

I think one of the reasons I'm so fascinated by this question is that it usually doesn't even dawn on me what the tense/POV is until I'm way into the story (or conversely, am NOT into the story...at which point I stop and wonder if the tense/POV is contributing to my not liking it!). Or it could just be that I'm simultaneously ignorant and oblivious (that's multi-tasking too, right?)!!!

I guess I was just surprised (thus all my pesky questions!) that POV/tense factored such a prominent role in deciding whether or not to engage a particular narrative. It just doesn't occur to me until later, when I'm knee deep in the story/characters/plot and am sorting out what's working and not working.

The deciding factor for me is almost always the author's voice. Obviously, the right POV/tense is vital in that regard. But like John said, different flavors for different palettes, right? There's obviously no right or wrong, one-size-fits-all answers here.

I will say that I'm currently reading a 2nd-person novel and loving it. (And yeah, the 2nd-person thing dawned on me in paragraph number one!). It's called Bright Lights, Big City by Jay Mcinerney and he does a brilliant job of putting the reader in the heart and mind of the protag (not really a great place to be in this tale...but he still pulls it off amazingly well). Also, Dave Eggers has a piece of short fiction in second person that I simply love. And Lorrie Moore (one of my faves) has an entire collection of short stories called Self Help that are ALL in second person. I will admit it can get tiresome. But there really are some great examples out there.

Also, I just read a Christian satire novel done in omniscient POV that really works remarkably well. I do wonder how that will be received by the buying/reading public though?

And although I read all over the place, my first two novels are written in first/present. In both cases I felt the intimacy created by first/present did a better job connecting the reader to my slightly neurotic characters. But my next novel will definitely be third/past because that's what the story demands.

Anyhow, thanks again for the feedback.

Mike

[Tarin]

POV may not always matter to the reader (consciously, at least), but I know it matters heaps to me as a writer. Some stories have fought me every step of the way - until I've changed the POV. It's much better to experiment and find the best POV before you're halfway into the story. Trust me, I know. :rolleyes:

[michaelsnyder]

Tarin,

I am SOOOO with you on experimenting and fighting it out as early in the process as possible. I changed my current novel's tense/POV five times...after I was already 50+ pages in!!!! That was not fun.

If anyone cares, what I settled on was this: Three distinct character POV's, all first person/present. The problem with that scenario is that I thought I was writing one long novel...turns out that I was writing three relatively short novels that had to all weave together. Live and learn, right?

Have a great weekend everyone!

Mike

[Tarin]

I changed my current novel's tense/POV five times...after I was already 50+ pages in!!!! That was not fun.

Ouch. I feel your pain.:(

[wowreallylongid]

Tarin,

I changed my current novel's tense/POV five times...after I was already 50+ pages in!!!! That was not fun.

Mike

yeah...i have a friend who wrote her novel all in 1st person, had the novel picked up by a publisher, and then the publisher said she had to change it all to third person or they wouldn't publish it. You know, come to think of it...I don't know what happened to that...I should call her...

[wgjones3]

I read about a situation like that, except it was an agent, not a publisher. They liked the novel, wanted to see the whole thing rewritten in third person, asked if it could be done in some really short time frame (three weeks maybe). The author obliged and the agency rejected the novel in third person because it wasn't as strong as the first person telling...

[righter1]

I read about a situation like that, except it was an agent, not a publisher. They liked the novel, wanted to see the whole thing rewritten in third person, asked if it could be done in some really short time frame (three weeks maybe). The author obliged and the agency rejected the novel in third person because it wasn't as strong as the first person telling...

Okay, now that's just bizarre... If it was stronger in the first person, why not accept it in the first person????

[wgjones3]

Probably because they didn't feel like it could be effectively marketed in first person.

They're not going to ask for a major rewrite if they feel the draft they have is publishable.

[michaelsnyder]

That's just goofy.

Anyone who's taken the time and effort to change from present-to-past or first-to-third (or vice versa) realizes that it's not just as simple as adding an '-ed' to all the present tense verbs. It has to be rewritten because the prose changes...dramatically. It changes the feel, the urgency, the intimacy. In short, it changes the voice. And in my humble opinion, an author's voice is THE single most important asset they have.

And if you know a writer friend who struggles with finding their own voice, a great exercise to recommend is to find a patch of first person/present tense and try rewriting a scene or two in third/past...It's not as easy as it sounds. But done properly, can teach a writer a great deal about their own voice (or lack thereof!)

[michaelsnyder]

Okay, now I have yet another question...

William, you mentioned that the publisher may have felt they couldn't market the book in third person. Again, I find that fascinating.

Have you (or anyone else out there!) ever heard of scenarios or situations where a publisher/agent felt that marketing one POV/tense was more difficult or cumbersome than another?

[wgjones3]

In the case I mentioned, the agency was marketing to editors, so it's a little different than marketing to the public. The agent obviously didn't feel that the manuscript was strong enough to warrant editor review in its current state, but felt that the story was worth perusing. So there's plenty of reason to assume that the plot/characters were strong but the writing itself was suspect. The suggested third-person rewrite was no different than a corporate restructure attempt--keep the good, throw out the bad.

The time frame no doubt contributed to failure, as three weeks is an impossibly short time to rewrite a novel completely. There's also no indication whether the author completely re-imagined the story to fit a third person POV or if they simply replaced all the I's with proper nouns. Bottom line, though, when a request like that comes, it's not a good omen.

POV is a tool. A good writer will be able to decide which POV best fits the story at hand and also be able to work well withing whatever POV structure he/she uses.

As for marketing, it wasn't a research-backed study, but I read somewhere that most novels by first-time authors are first-person POV. I don't know that I have enough experience with the market to say just how accurate that is though.

[jacks girl]

I've never had that problem but just because I'm bored I'll say this. LOL. I don't like first person because i just can't get into the story as well. I don't like I did this and I did that. i like Jane did this. I know we all have our own preferences.

I wonder what people would say, those that don't write what POV do they prefer some of them I know i'll have to explain what POV is. LOL. I know we writers are a peculiar bunch so i would expect writers to have a favorite or non favorite LOL. I'm gonna try to ask a few people this week that don't write what they prefer and see if it matters.

jacks

[Phy]

POVs, not so much. But personally I'm not a fan of present tense. I dunno why. It just seems to pull me out of the story somehow, rather forcefully pointing out that I'm reading something. Which is the numero uno kiss of death for fiction, IMHO.

Charles Stross wrote his 'Halting State' book this way. It was a little odd, but the rest of the book's mechanics were sound, and the plot and execution were so good that I quickly got over it. And iirc, it's up for a Hugo this year.

[Phy]

I prefer really well written first person, but I’d never choose a book based upon the POV. As far as selecting a book, I like to checkout the back cover and then read the first few pages.

Same here.

When I read the following examples, I have an immediate favorite:

"I drove all night to Denver."

"Sam drove all night to Denver."

Roger Zelazny was a master of the 1st person POV, and he was a lyrical, spare stylist. He spoiled me for another other POV. 1st POV can be very rich depending on your voice. 3rd POV has always seemed weak to me as a result, even though it is currently much in vogue as the preferred POV.

I remember reading his first book about Carl Corey, aka Corwin, one of the nine princes of Amber. His first book guides us seductively from our world to the one "real world" of Amber through the eyes of Corwin, one of the nine princes mentioned in the title. Roger Zelazny plays Corwin like Bogart's Thin Man in a Mervyn Peake fantasy. The details of our memory-challenged narrator's life sprinkle slowly into view as Corwin bluffs his way back into his embattled, fiercely competitive family and Amber.

A variation on the 1st person POV comes when the narrator is telling his own story, but he's cavalier about it. I remember loving Magnum, P.I. for the "I know what you're thinking" schtick. I felt l was sitting in with Magnum as he told a story in a way only he could, like we were sitting around a table or something. It invites intimacy, immediacy.

I spend most of my writing efforts learning the 3rd person POV, but my heart is with the 1st person.

[righter1]

I spend most of my writing efforts learning the 3rd person POV, but my heart is with the 1st person.

I understand what you're saying, Phy... I love writing 1st person, though I'm comfortable writing in 3rd. My biggest experiment right now is writing about 2/3 of a story in 3rd person with another 1/3 (from a singular POV) from 1st person. So far, in the rough draft, I'm happy with the results, but we'll see what everyone else thinks about it when I get it to the critique phase. :)

[Tarin]

Bogart's Thin Man

I believe William Powell played the Thin Man.