When do Christians go to Heaven?

[Paul.Chernoch]

I read this article recently:

Bishop: Do Christians go to Heaven? (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=56071)

At one point in the article, the Bishop says this:

He explained: "There is Luke 23, where Jesus says to the good thief on the cross, 'Today you will be with me in paradise.' But in Luke, we know first of all that Christ himself will not be resurrected for three days, so 'paradise' cannot be a resurrection. It has to be an intermediate state. And chapters 4 and 5 of Revelation, where there is a vision of worship in heaven that people imagine describes our worship at the end of time. In fact it's describing the worship that's going on right now. If you read the book through, you see that at the end we don't have a description of heaven, but, as I said, of the new heavens and the new Earth joined together."

I am not disputing the intermediate state part of his answer, but I believe he errs in his interpretation of the story of the thief on the cross. Jesus was fully man, so I believe his body did not enter heaven until his ascension days later. But Jesus is also fully God, hence is omnipresent, therefore certainly he would be in Heaven to receive the thief. So I believe that the intermediate state that Christians find themselves in IS in Heaven, not another place.

Anyone else catch this article and have something to add?

- Paul

[Xenia]

Paradise was NOT heaven... It was Abraham's bosom.

[Ransom v. Unman]

Well, N.T. Wright allows particular strands of contemporary-Jewish thought to inform much of his theology. Speaking from the perspective of Rabbinic Judaism, to which Jesus' teachings can closely and easily be linked, Bishop Wright is absolutely correct.

There are really a whole slew of theological postulations to consider though when attacking this issue. Questions like "Is the soul separable from the body?", "What does the bodily resurrection signify?", "How do we interpret 'I assure you today you will be with me in Paradise'?" These questions can be tackled from multiple angles and viewpoints, and every single one of them could be biblically and historically justified!

I think the most important thing to keep in mind is the promise and the hope of the Resurrection. This – without arguement – is what Jews and Christians laid their hope on, from the beginning of Christ's ministry to the present day. When we get into the issue of whether we're sleeping or in Heaven in the meantime I think is honestly splitting hairs. The central message is that even if we die, we will be raised up again into God's glory, and sup of life everlasting.

Paul, in direct answer to the question of "When do we go to Heaven?" I believe we begin going to Heaven as we let God reign in our lives, hence the term "Kingdom of Heaven." Bishop Wright touches on a great deal of this in that article, and I say I agree with him.

I also agree with his notion that saying "I'm going to heaven soon, and I won't need this stupid body there, thank goodness." is "a very damaging distortion, all the more so for being unintentional." It downplays the importance of our physical bodies – a pagan and platonic doctrine, mind – and gives us a false understanding about the importance of creation and the physical realm. Throughout Christian history, this Platonic theology has done a tremendous amount of damage.

Personally, I can find nothing wrong with any of Wright's statements here, and I can't honestly think of a biblical passage offhand that utterly refutes his postulation, whereas I can think of several throughout the Old and New Testaments that corroborate it. My memory is incomplete, obviously, so if anyone can think of anything, I'll happily stand corrected.

Anyway, my thoughts. For what they're worth.

:D

[Tarin]

Hmm, interesting. My only thought is that because God is outside of time, the reference to "today" in Christ's statement to the thief on the cross wouldn't necessarily be linked to our finite understanding of the word. As far as the thief would be aware, his awakening in paradise, with Christ, would seem to take place immediately after his death - on the same day. But, for Christ, who is outside of time, "today" could easily have meant the same thing as three days later.

Of course that's all complete speculation.

[jacks girl]

To me Paradise is like a waiting room. It's a place for people to rest but it's not heaven. It's where baby's grow up and where the body's of the saints go to rest. This of course is my opinion. I have no real verses to back me up. Other than Jesus telling the thief that today you will be with me in Paradise and a out of body Exp. my aunt had i have no real proof.

[ProfessorAlan]

Christains certainly don't spend eternity in Heaven, as it passes away at the end, and we occupy eternally a holy city on a New Earth. Whether we spend a little time there in between, I'm not so sure ... Abraham's bosom, paradise ... these seem more Eden-like to me than Heaven-like, places prepared for earthly beings rather than heavenly.

We are trapped inside of Time on this side of the veil and in Eternity on the other side, and how and when that transition occurs is waaaaay over my head. But I don't mind Wright's intermediate state.

[Tommie Lyn]

This topic, like so many other Biblical subjects, is easy to speculate about. But I believe it's more fruitful to see what the Bible says about death and the hereafter.

One scene Jesus depicted of the hereafter (and He didn't say it was a parable -- He described it as though it were an actual happening) is the scene of the rich man and Lazarus (by the way, Hades is the place where the dead go, not, as we've come to think of it, hell. Abraham and Lazarus were also in Hades -- but on the other side of the chasm from the rich man):

"In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'" Luke 16:23-26

But, is that all that happens after we die, that we go to either side of the chasm in Hades? And why are we there and for how long?

"And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him." Hebrews 9:27-28

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." 2 Corinthians 5:10

"But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. For it is written, 'AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD.' So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God." Romans 14:10-12

"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. John 5:25-29

"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." Matthew 25:31-33

All quotes are from the NASB.

[kluchar70]

When Jesus said that to the thief, he was referring to Abraham's bosom which was the place described in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Before Christ ascended, that is where the righteous went, and as the parable suggests it was immediately. This was because nobody could yet enter into God's presence because the perfect sacrifice had not been made. So when the thief died, he went to paradise. When Jesus died, the Bible says(I can't remember where) that he led the faithful to heaven. He descended into the earth to paradise where he gathered his children who could now enter into Heaven and the presence of God. So now, paradise is empty and we go to be with God in Heaven. As Paul says, to be absent from the body is to be present with Christ. That is the way I understand it.

[Xenia]

When Jesus said that to the thief, he was referring to Abraham's bosom which was the place described in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Before Christ ascended, that is where the righteous went, and as the parable suggests it was immediately. This was because nobody could yet enter into God's presence because the perfect sacrifice had not been made. So when the thief died, he went to paradise. When Jesus died, the Bible says(I can't remember where) that he led the faithful to heaven. He descended into the earth to paradise where he gathered his children who could now enter into Heaven and the presence of God. So now, paradise is empty and we go to be with God in Heaven. As Paul says, to be absent from the body is to be present with Christ. That is the way I understand it.

Me too... me too!

[Paul.Chernoch]

Good answers all. You've all given me something to think about.

- Paul