Rapture

[Xenia]

I believe in the pre-tribulation rapture of the saints. What about you?

[ProfessorAlan]

no.

need a few more terms there for me to check one -- so I didn't vote.

[Phy]

I'm with the Prof.

[Colin]

I am with you Xenia!

[Rebecca]

I believe in a pre-trib rapture. I also believe this is an in-house debate of nonessential doctrine, and shouldn't divide Believers. :)

Rebecca

[lynnmosher]

I'm with you, Rebecca. If we've all received salvation through Christ, then we will all go when He calls, whenever it is!

[Xenia]

I also believe this is an in-house debate of nonessential doctrine, and shouldn't divide Believers. :)Rebecca

That's for sure!!! And, like Lynn said... I'll be going whenever He calls, that's the important thing!
Professor, what other options are there?

[Tarin]

I don't believe in it. I actually tend to lean toward preterism more than any other eschatological viewpoint. I think the rapture doctrine has caused problems within Christianity as a whole, just because it tends to make Christians place too much focus on the future, rather the present Kingdom. But I agree with Rebecca that this is ultimately an relatively inconsequential matter (as in, there's nothing we can do about it no matter what we believe) and should not be a cause of schisms among brethren.

[jacks girl]

I can't prove that it will happen, but I believe it will. I won't argue about it with people we all need to be more concerned about loving our brother and living Christ like. when he calls i want to be ready to go when ever that is how ever that is. I don't think my life time will see the rapture but I know some day that I will get that horse i always wanted because of a verse in the Bible. Where the saints ride white horses.

LOL I'm not picky about what color horse I get.

[Xenia]

I actually tend to lean toward preterism What is preterism?

[Tarin]

What is preterism?

In short, that the prophecies of the end times were fulfilled when the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D.

[Xenia]

Hmmm...I have never heard of that!

[Tamera]

I have. But if you take the book of Revelation literally, I just don't see how you can make it fit. But then, some take it figuratively. Either way, I agree with Rebecca. It doesn't matter. It's not essential to salvation.

[ProfessorAlan]

If pressed, I might go with "pre-wrath" for the timing, but don't think the "caught up" terminology of a rapture refers to a literal bodily disappearing.

But I don't think it's a "non-negotiable" among the brethren, as say the Trinity or divinity of Christ is ...

[Phy]

I'm a pan-trib guy - I believe it will all pan out in the end. ;)

[ProfessorAlan]

And I suspect the end may be thousands and thousands of years away still ... maybe longer ...

[srussell]

The poll needs an "I don't know" selection.

[Colin]

Hmmmm Professor and heres me thinking that I shall not see my 65th birthday because I will have been caught up! Who else thinks the Lord's return is nearer than a lot of people believe? No matter how it is going to be....He is surely coming!

[Tamera]

I agree Colin. I don't believe that I will die from old age. I believe the rapture will come first. The Bible talks about how in the last days, men will be scoffers and say "Where is His coming?" The fact that the Christian world is turning away from end times theology, I believe, is proof that it's close.

[jacks girl]

I don't think it's bad enough yet but it could go down faster than I'm thinking it will.

[ProfessorAlan]

The fact that the Christian world is turning away from end times theology, I believe, is proof that it's close.
That kind of self-fulfilling prophecy can't be argued, so I'll just move on.

Plus, I have a feeling that your analysis of "the Christian world" covers just one small slice of the Church unviersal.

Various people/groups have been fixated by end times theology for nearly 2 millennia now. The equivalent of the "Left Behinds" would have been big sellers in the years just before 1000, for example ... except we didn't have literacy and printing presses, but you know what I mean.

[ProfessorAlan]

No matter how it is going to be....He is surely coming!
On that we agree!

[Tamera]

That kind of self-fulfilling prophecy can't be argued, so I'll just move on.

Plus, I have a feeling that your analysis of "the Christian world" covers just one small slice of the Church unviersal.

Various people/groups have been fixated by end times theology for nearly 2 millennia now. The equivalent of the "Left Behinds" would have been big sellers in the years just before 1000, for example ... except we didn't have literacy and printing presses, but you know what I mean.

That may be true, but since I'm queen of my own universe, I can make the rules for what I believe. LOL.:D

Seriously, if I'm wrong about the closeness of His coming, it won't affect my faith. I admit I am flawed and imperfect in my understanding of God. I learned along time ago that if it's between me and God being wrong, I'm always the one.

[Gravity]

I'm a pre-trib rapture guy. But over the years I've changed my idea on when it will happen. When my wife and I were first saved--back in the early seventies--we were convinced we wouldn't be here to see our fortieth birthdays. Well, those birthdays came and went, and now we're within shouting distance of sixty. Sadly, I don't think the rapture is going to come any time soon. Wish it would, though...

[srussell]

I think the idea is to live though He were coming back within the thirty seconds, but admit we don't know when He'll be back. No matter when He returns, it will be a surprise, and we want to be doing what He expects of us, not with our hand in the proverbial cookie jar.

[ProfessorAlan]

I'm a pre-trib rapture guy. But over the years I've changed my idea on when it will happen. When my wife and I were first saved ... we were convinced we wouldn't be here to see our fortieth birthdays.
I know too many people whose entire lives revolved around being convinced that the End was coming in '88, or '91, or '99, or '00, or whenever, and either: a) become disgusted/disillusioned when it didn't happen and fell away, or b) made horrid life choices based on being taught a timetable that ended up being wrong, and have spent years digging out from those consequences.

[Ransom v. Unman]

Jehovah's Witnesses share a similar obsession, Prof.

[Cymrugirl]

No idea. Theories are theories, and they're all interesting, but I'm with Phy. Pan-trib-hop-skip-jump girl here.

[ProfessorAlan]

Jehovah's Witnesses share a similar obsession, Prof.
Yup.

I don't share the obsession (although I did read all 16 LB books, and so far the first 7 in the Kids series ......... conclude what you will)

[Ransom v. Unman]

I'll conclude you have a sterner ocular-literary stomach than I.

>_<

[ProfessorAlan]

hours I will never get back, RvU ....

[Hisart]

All I know is I have a first-class ticket outta here, my Older Brother paid for it, so when the end comes I'll be like Noah and Lot ... long gone and safe! ;D

[Ransom v. Unman]

Question:

How do we reconcile Christ's promises to believers that they will suffer in the End Times (and yea, throughout all Christian history) with an eschatology that teaches us that God's going to plunk us out of all the terrible danger of the tribulation?

[ProfessorAlan]

I am intrigued by a theology that differentiates between "tribulation" and "God's wrath," pointing out that believers are immune from the latter, but as RvU points out, certainly not the former.

[Ransom v. Unman]

I am intrigued by a theology that differentiates between "tribulation" and "God's wrath," pointing out that believers are immune from the latter, but as RvU points out, certainly not the former.

But that's the heart of the issue, methinks... Tribulation is precisely what pre-milennialism and dispensationalism teaches us we are exempt from just as much as God's wrath.

[Xenia]

Maybe there is a difference between tribulation and THE tribulation?

[Tamera]

My understanding is the tribulation is to bring the Jews to repentance (Daniel's 70th week) and pour out wrath on those nations who won't repent. Therefore there's no need for us to be here. That doesn't exempt us from tribulation throughout history.

[Tarin]

Unless the tribulation was already fulfilled in 70 A.D. How do you get around all the verses that say "and all these things must shortly come to pass"? Christ even said that it should come before the generation of the Apostles had died out.

[ProfessorAlan]

I think that God's perspective is so different from ours that concepts of time such as "soon," "generation," and "age" need to be taken less literally than other

It's been 2,000 years, and all that time His return has been "soon." And if the Lord tarries another few thousand, as I certainly think He could, it would still be "soon." Whatever the duration between His first and second comings ends up being, compared to and in light of the Eternity that is to follow, it's "soon."

[jacks girl]

What was the verse a 1000 years is like a day to the Lord. I don't think when he said this generation he meant that group. i think he was speaking on a higher plain. But thats just me.

[Tarin]

"A thousand years is to the Lord as a day." But does that mean that every mention of a day in the Bible is referencing a thousand years? The only reason we have not to take Christ at His word when He speaks of a generation here is our own conceptions of what He meant by the "things" that shall come to pass. If, from our vantage point, those things have not come to pass, then, of course, our tendency would be to keep moving the fulfillment of these prophecies into the future. But, with a little study, it's amazing how perfectly the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple fulfill the Revelation.

Eschatology is not one of my favorite subjects, due its general futility (what has been, has been, and what will be, will be), but what I've read on the subject all points to preterism as the most likely solution. Should the Lord decide to come tomorrow, I'm hardly going to complain, but I do believe this interpretation makes the most complete sense. :)

If anyone's interested, I can recommend some thought-provoking books on the subject.

[ProfessorAlan]

But I am not convinced that Revelation was written before the fall of the Temple. The arguments for dating it around 95 seem much stronger to me than those that date it in the 60s.

[Tarin]

I would disagree (obviously :p ), but that is probably the best argument against preterism.

[ProfessorAlan]

Most of the arguments I've heard for pretermisn are based on the early dating, and then they argue for the early dating because it fits pretermism ... it all sounds a bit too circular for my tastes.

[Tarin]

It was R.C. Sproul who came up with the argument that convinced me... but I can't remember what it was off the top of my head. :o I should dig back through his material and find it again.

[Gina123]

To hark back to someones question about how you can reconcile Christ's teaching about the end times suffering and those who teach in the rapture of the church, this is what I believe.

Jesus was speaking to a Jewish audience. He was telling them about the last days and what will happen with Israel in those days. He never alludes to the rapture as far as I can tell. Later, the Apostle Paul writes 'I show you a mystery'. He says that because it was revealed to him about what the fate of the church will be. That of being raptured out of the world. The church is not raptured to escape the tribulation (there is much tribulation even now in many parts of the world), but rather to escape the wrath of God. In this world we are promised tribulation, but we are also told that we are not made for wrath. From what I understand, the wrath of God will be poured out on the entire earth in the final years of the tribulation. Thats when the sun is darkened, the waters are defiled and stars appear to fall from the sky....

I Cor 15:51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


Noah can be used as a type for both opinions. He was saved from the wrath of God by being removed to a place of safety (as the church will be) but the other side can say he was not completely taken out of the world. A better type might be Enoch who was translated before the final chapter in antedeluvial history. He was taken up out of the world and some time after that the wrath of God was poured out. Noah might then be a type for Israel that is miraculously kept while being on earth during the wrath of God being poured out.

All very interesting to those who enjoy end time studies. I happen to enjoy it. On the other hand I don't think it is essential to understand these things, much less to understand them the same way.

I DO think we are obviously in the last days simply because of Israel. Israel is in the time of her regathering. Just as Ezekiels dry bones. She is come together again as a nation but does not yet have the life (spirit life) breathed in. Israel is yet in unbelief. (as a whole)

This is a part of what I believe. There is evidence that some of the earliest church fathers also believed this. (despite many saying to the otherwise) If anyone is interested there is a short discussion of this at Khouse.org.

I believe some things are understood only as the time is ripe for us to need to know. I also believe that as we put our trust in the Lord He will lead us into what we need to know. Not a new revelation, but rather an understanding of scripture more perfectly as the day approaches.

[ProfessorAlan]

Good points, Gina.

[Paul.Chernoch]

My take on Revelation is that has two messages to offer.

1) To those who will not live to see the end of the end times, it offers a general comfort that God is in charge, he will judge the world, they will be spared, and a new world is coming.

2) To those who will endure the hard times that immediately precede the tribulation and the time of the rapture, God will make what is unclear to us now very clear to them, so that they will be able to escape the outpouring of his wrath.

A preterist might say that those Christians who heeded the warning about the abomination that brings desolation escaped the sack of Jerusalem. In a sense, they were raptured from the city, but remained on earth.

The same might be true for believers in the future. I believe that though the language is figurative, there are concrete warnings that will bring comfort to those who finally understand what is now concealed. Or as people say today: "actionable intelligence".

I just don't have that understanding now.

- Paul

[sacred]

nonessential doctrine?? can't prove that it will happen?? inconsequential matter??

Am I on a Christian channel. I'm so sorry to lighten the darkness here. Listen to you guys. Do any of you even know where the verse is?? How can we believe or dis believe what we cannot even find for ourselves in scriptures. We would do better to just say, "I don't know".

Rev 10 7 the mystery of God is complete at the last trump. If you,ve studied your bibles, you know that at Christ all things became spirtual when they were once phisical, right?? heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost did signify that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was standing. This says that the Jews never entered the true temple because the old temple was not the real temple. Christ is the real Temple. How does this fit in?? Simple,...the things set up in revelation near that final MYSTERY of God verse were not about the physical things. Why?? Because these things are spiritual now, such as the temple, so it would be wrong to suggest that in this specific time, that these things would mysteriously revert back to the phisical.

This means that the Church is the true meaning of these things. All things were a shadow of Christ and the Church, untill Christ and the Church were established as a single Body, when Christ rose again and brought all men of all ages within the elect line to that single spiritual body, ...so the time line of revelations says that the Church is present and being persecuted at the time of rev 10 7 when the mystery of God is finally complete. What is the mystery of God?? It is the last one soul, or lost lamb as Jesus declared that not a single one will be lost, and again , "I come only for the lost sheep of Israel,,, again this is the spiritual Israel though they knew it not. ....to be entered into the fold, thereby onointing the Holy One which is the whole of the Body of Christ in that he could not be reanointed with a different annointment than that of Isaiah, when He was anointed to preach to the broken. This anointing of rev 10 7 is the true anointing of the whole Body in which He could not have been onointed prior till the full Body. Again this text of scriture does not revert backward toward things completed such as the shadows of the true view which is the mystery of Christ.

I'll pause with one reference, and that is Dan 9 24 the six decrees of God toward mankind because that is our number and these six things are decreed in that day of rev 10 7. Irrelevant you say?? Brethren I would not have ye ignorant. It is as simple as the Gospel bell. Ding Ding!!

[sacred]

According to most here I would ask for them Where is the 'I dont know button'.

[Ransom v. Unman]

According to most here I would ask for them Where is the 'I dont know button'.

Somewhere between "Humility" and "Honesty".

The more I've studied the Bible, and I have a nice little piece of paper hanging on my wall saying that I've studied it enough to be something of an authority on these things, the more I come to realise there are mysteries and beauties that go beyond our meagre comprehension, and more often than not, "I don't know" is by far the best response.

When it comes to the End of All Things, Christ Himself says He doesn't know (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:36;&version=49;).

So, please. You do not have a monopoly on the truth, no matter what Lord MacArthur tells you. Show respect and deference for other people's beliefs and convictions, because despite what you think, few of these matters are so black & white. :)

[Rebecca]

Sacred,

Kindness goes a long way. Whether or not you agree with the opinions of others here, you need to show respect for your brothers and sisters in Christ.

[sacred]

Did either of you two read dan 9 24 or rev 10 7 or do you just want me to come over and rub your feet. and by the way Where is the I Dont' know button because not one single person on this entire thread has claimed to know. Not you two that's for sure. not even me. place the button and I'll push it. I said the mystery of God is finished on that same day, whenevr that day is. The Temple is not phisical so the Temple is spirtual the Church will be there on that day. it's just that simple. The question is since this is true of the Chuch, then where in time is rev 10 7?? answer it or no I don't know either but if I say irrelevant or unimportant as my wonderfull family suggest I say then i need a I don't know button and you haven't provided one.

[Xenia]

Thank you Ransom and Rebecca. You tried.

I am sorry I didn't think to put an "I don't know" choice.

[Xenia]

1 Corinthians 13

The Greatest Gift

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%2013&version=50#fen-NKJV-28663a)] but have not love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

[Ransom v. Unman]

Did either of you two read dan 9 24 or rev 10 7 or do you just want me to come over and rub your feet. and by the way Where is the I Dont' know button because not one single person on this entire thread has claimed to know. Not you two that's for sure. not even me. place the button and I'll push it. I said the mystery of God is finished on that same day, whenevr that day is. The Temple is not phisical so the Temple is spirtual the Church will be there on that day. it's just that simple. The question is since this is true of the Chuch, then where in time is rev 10 7?? answer it or no I don't know either but if I say irrelevant or unimportant as my wonderfull family suggest I say then i need a I don't know button and you haven't provided one.

You really don't get it do you?

There are MANY different ways to interpret these passages. I ask you now, have you read Matthew 24:36? There's the button! There's Jesus saying "I Don't Know"!

You have interpreted Revelation 10:7 and drawn a conclusion from it that I don't think the Scripture can honestly support. Again, JESUS DOES NOT KNOW WHEN THAT DAY REFERENCED IN REV. 10:7 IS! If God's son doesn't know, you sure as anything have no right to come in and beligerantly claim that you do!

And you're not even making coherent points...

And you're making moderators and administrators mad at you.

[Rebecca]

Discussion (and polite counterpoints) are fine, belligerence is not. Just a quick note to let everyone know the troll has been removed from the site.

Carry on. :)

[Colin]

Thank you Rebecca!

[Colin]

Thank you Xenia for the timely scriptures. If we remain within the confines of what Paul wrote, we will do well. I love all the debates in here and the points of views expressed and it is great to know other peoples thoughts. I am even begining to admire Ransom...Arsenal supporter that he is!

[Ransom v. Unman]

I am even begining to admire Ransom...Arsenal supporter that he is!

:eek:

...............

[ProfessorAlan]

I am even begining to admire Ransom...Arsenal supporter that he is!
Supporting Arsenal is his one redeeming feature .....

[Ransom v. Unman]

Supporting Arsenal is his one redeeming feature .....

Hey! :mad:

[Tarin]

Oh, come now, fellas, he's also pretty handy with Google and Wikipedia. ;)


And hijacking threads... :rolleyes:

[Ransom v. Unman]

I feel a need to remind everyone that I am a moderator here, and we banned one person today already.

Just a reminder though...

[Katibriah]

Don't listen to them Ransom. You have lots of good thoughts and quite a sense of humor. I thoroughly enjoy reading what you post. It's quite interesting and thought provoking. Even if I don't always agree with everything you say. :)

[Tamera]

Don't listen to them Ransom. You have lots of good thoughts and quite a sense of humor. I thoroughly enjoy reading what you post. It's quite interesting and thought provoking. Even if I don't always agree with everything you say. :)

Brown noser. :D

[Katibriah]

Who me?????

Never.... lol

Just stating my opinion. ;)

[Colin]

As this is a rapture thread and as a Man. Utd. supporter I have a feeling I will be raptured very soon or in raptures and some others here will be going through great tribulation! As a pre tribulation rapture guy I get very excited at all the signs pointing to his near return...wars..earthquakes....the middle east...how the European Union is developing and all that. I know it is pointed out that a lot of this stuff has been going on for ages but I am really convinced it is now all building up to a climax. Having said all that, I have read and heard convincing arguments for the church to go through the great tribulation and also convincing arguments for the church to be raptured. I guess I have been more convinced with the pre tribulation rapture argument. And that is all I am going to say about that!

[Lookin^Up]

First of all, I don't believe we can be dogmatic about any of these answers because it's in the future, and the future is always an unknown zone. But I would have to agree with Xenia and Gina (an especially long and detailed dissertation--job well done, btw) that it will occur before the Tribulation (as opposed to the tribulations we experience today) because it will be much worse under the Antichrist than it is today--as hard as that is to imagine.

Jesus did imply the Rapture in His famous sermon of Matthew 24, for He mentioned two pairs of people (meal grinders and workmen in the field) where one will be taken and the other left. Coupled with the warnings to "watch therefore" would indicate the disciples (and subsequent generations) should watch for it to happen.

As for Revelation being fulfilled during ancient Rome's heyday, I would like to remind my brothers and sisters that most prophecies have at least two fulfillments. The first one happens within a few years to validate the prophet, and the second comes generations later. For instance, when Isaiah predicted "For unto us a son is born ...", a son was born to him and his wife shortly thereafter, Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz (imagine yelling that name across a schoolyard full of children! :eek:), and it was fulfilled again in Jesus' birth.

With basic freedoms being trodden under the cleats of angry unbelievers right and left, even in America, what choice does God have but to let Jesus come very soon?

Just my two cents.

[ProfessorAlan]

... because it will be much worse under the Antichrist than it is today--as hard as that is to imagine ... With basic freedoms being trodden under the cleats of angry unbelievers right and left, even in America
Oooh, it's been much worse for our past brothers and sisters. Look into the Roman martyrs of 64 AD (under Nero) to get a feel for it. And it's gonna get much worse in the future.

what choice does God have but to let Jesus come very soon? The same decision God has made every time the last 2 millennia when His children believed the end must come: the grace of patience.

[Lookin^Up]

Oooh, it's been much worse for our past brothers and sisters. Look into the Roman martyrs of 64 AD (under Nero) to get a feel for it. And it's gonna get much worse in the future.
"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Matthew 24:21-22

[ProfessorAlan]

I agree that Matthew 24 will be fulfilled, and we won't be present for the pouring out of God's wrath. I just don't think we are in the "those days" now, and I certainly stand my earlier post that many of our current and past brethren have had it worse than we have it, "even in America."

[Ransom v. Unman]

Jesus did imply the Rapture in His famous sermon of Matthew 24, for He mentioned two pairs of people (meal grinders and workmen in the field) where one will be taken and the other left. Coupled with the warnings to "watch therefore" would indicate the disciples (and subsequent generations) should watch for it to happen.

But I always find it interesting how pre-Tribbers use this passage to validate the pre-Trib belief because Jesus is clearly implying that the Rapture and His Ultimate Return are simultaneous. No seven years of waiting... No rise of the Antichrist in the meantime... It seems to very straightforwardly (at least in my mind) say "Jesus comes back, Rapture happens."

This is one of the reasons I'm certainly not a pre-tribber...

[Tamera]

I am a pretribber. But I don't believe Matthew 24 has anything to do with the rapture. He's speaking to the Jews. I believe he's talking about the time during the tribulation where the Jews flee to Petra.

Like I said, I believe in a pretrib rapture, but there are some verses that are speaking to the Jewish nation that are mistakingly used for the church. I think sometimes this muddies the water.

[Ransom v. Unman]

I am a pretribber. But I don't believe Matthew 24 has anything to do with the rapture. He's speaking to the Jews. I believe he's talking about the time during the tribulation where the Jews flee to Petra.

Like I said, I believe in a pretrib rapture, but there are some verses that are speaking to the Jewish nation that are mistakingly used for the church. I think sometimes this muddies the water.

O_o

Seems fairly evident that He's speaking of the End there... I mean, the whole sky cracking open, Son of Man riding down on the clouds thing... Just seems to apply to everyone, and not just the Jews or the Church. The "mini-apocalypses" are hard to interpret though, I'll say, as He seems to rather seamlessly drift from talking about the destruction of the Temple and the End of All Things.

But, this, again, seems fairly self-evident to me...

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

/shrug

[Tamera]

He does jump around a lot in Matthew 24 to different events. Here's my take on it. Although I have admitted to being wrong from time to time.

1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."

3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

Jesus' disciples were asking about 3 periods of time.

The destruction of the temple, the second coming (not the rapture-at the end of the tribulation), and the end of the age (also the second coming-the end of Earth as we know it to be.)

The rapture is not the second coming. Christ calls the church from the sky. He does not come back to Earth at this time.

Matthew 24:4-24 Time leading up to the end including the tribulation.
Mathew 24:15-22 The Jews fleeing to Petra during the tribulation.
Matthew 24:24 The elect are the Jews.
Matthew 24:30-31 The second coming of Christ

I have more but I won't bore you with any more of my thoughts concerning this passage. I believe the main passages involving the rapture are found in
these scriptures.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17: Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

1 Thessalonians 5:23: May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-8: Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

Rev. 4:1 (Implied) After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.

Luke 21:34-36: "Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

1 Corinthians 15:51-52: Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

1 Thessalonians 2:19: For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes? Is it not you?

1 Thessalonians 3:13: May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

I do respect others opinions on the subject, but these are some of the scripture I use to support my opinion.

[Ransom v. Unman]

Well, for my own part, since the writing of Daniel, the return of the Son of Man riding on the clouds has represented the coming of the Messiah, what we would dub the "Second Coming." The line "They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds" is a direct reference to the apocalyptic tradition where on the Day of Judgment, the Messiah would come to redeem God's people. The idea of God calling His people from all four corners of the Earth on that day was also particularly favoured in that time, and is still believed by more-or-less orthodox Jews as a sign of the Messiah and the End of Days.

Again, this is why it seems clear to me that Christ is uniting the calling of the Elect from the four corners and the Second Coming. It also touches on something else too, namely that while the Rapture's connexion to the Second Coming has existed since times that actually predate Christ's earthly ministry by several hundred years, the doctrine of a Pre-Trib Rapture didn't even exist until the early 19th century – there's something fishy to me in adopting such a radical form of eschatology that by comparison has very little historical attestation.
....

For the record, I'm shutting up on the matter. I think that's about as many points on the matter as I want to make, because in the end, none of us know...

Well, except that one guy. :rolleyes:

[Tamera]

I'm shutting up on the matter. I think that's about as many points on the matter as I want to make, because in the end, none of us know...

Well, except that one guy. :rolleyes:

I agree. I just wanted to show why I believe the way I do. But I'm done too. As you say, only one guy knows the whole truth. ;)

[Lookin^Up]

I think the topic has been talked out as much as it can be. I'm letting it ride as well.