I heard Obama beat out Hillary in the Iowa

[jacks girl]

Is this true and if so what do you think this means. Would you vote for Hillary or Obama if you were voting for their side.



I'm undecided. I must admit Hillary scares me a little.

Jacks

[Ransom v. Unman]

"Other side"

What makes you think all of us are Republicans?

[kshsj777]

Well I'd vote for neither.

Even if you tied me to a chair and threatened me with death and severe bodily harm...

Well okay, if I HAD to choose between the two, it'd be Obama.

There is NO way in Heaven, on Earth, under the Earth or any place else, that I would vote for Hillary. She advocates everything that's evil like abortion and homosexuality for example.

[kshsj777]

By the way, the Republican candidates aren't that great either. There's like one or two, and I forgot their names, I think Mike Huckabee, or something that promotes conservative values. But they don't have much chance of winning.

So who will I vote for this fall? Well nobody, if I don't register to vote in time :) I really don't know. Guess I better decide quick, huh?

[Ransom v. Unman]

She advocates everything that's evil like abortion and homosexuality for example.
Well, the way most people carry on, you'd think that there weren't any evils at all outside these issues...

>_<

[kshsj777]

Well yes of course there's other evils, Ransom. I just listed the first two that came to mind.

[Ransom v. Unman]

Well yes of course there's other evils, Ransom. I just listed the first two that came to mind.

But you see, that's my problem with this whole bloody Kingdom of Man, political co-opting of Christianity... Why those two? Why not the exploitation of the poor, or mishandling of the Earth's resources? Why aren't we railing against unchecked capitalistic greed and unfair business practises carried out by multi-nationals? What about ridiculous consumer spending and materialistic marketing campaigns undermining our very ability to achieve stability and happieness? What about the military-industrial complex that is costing American lives, as well as those in third world nations around the globe?

If you asked me (no one did, but I'm spouting off anyway) any of the above issues are far more important to me than regulating who non-believers sleep with or whether a bunch of Babylonians abort their kids. These things are wrong, indeed, but if we look at what God talks about in the whole of the Bible, greed, oppression, strife and false gods are all polemicised at length to such a degree that sexuality and the hardly-ever mentioned issue of an unborn child's rights are essentially sideline issues.

Yet, no "Christian" politician I know gives a rat's-rear about any of the issues I mentioned initially. In fact, when it comes to things like multi-national exploitation and the military-industrial complex, many "Christian" candidates are in out-and-out support of them! Bollocks to all that I say.

Vote Jesus and Gandalf this election. Politicians are crooks.

[kshsj777]

Not all polictians are crooks.

[Ransom v. Unman]

Not all polictians are crooks.

Right... I keep forgetting, that 85% of the politicians gives the other 15% a bad name.

[kshsj777]

I'm thinking more like Jesus '08, no vice-president neccessary. And I'm thinking about voting for abolishing the presidency and establishing the monarchy, more specifically, a theocracy. All Hail King Jesus!

[Ransom v. Unman]

I'm thinking more like Jesus '08, no vice-president neccessary. And I'm thinking about voting for abolishing the presidency and establishing the monarchy, more specifically, a theocracy. All Hail King Jesus!

I can support that, and probably nothing else.

I guess that makes me something of an anarchist... >:-)

[kshsj777]

No it doesn't.

King Jesus told us that we have to respect our earthy leaders and obey their laws as long as they don't command to contradict HIS laws.

[psychoceramic]

I'd pick edwards if i was to vote for the dem party.. but as the topic says.....this mean nothing, Iowa is the first but there is still along way to go until the one person get the magic number and the nomination.

Does hillary need to work harder, yes and she needs to nail down her opinions, Obama needs to keep throwing ideas to the wind that way every one will have something they like about him.

And as someone once said.... The "Lesser of Two evils is STILL EVIL."

[lynnmosher]

***me too***

[kshsj777]

And as someone once said.... The "Lesser of Two evils is STILL EVIL."

Amen to that!

But I do have a question, and I am not saying this applies to this situation (it doesn't, 'cause you could just not vote at all if neccessary) but what if one of the two evil choices must be made and there is no third choice?

[wgjones3]

I think the only thing Iowa did was create enough instability within the Democratic party to allow Edwards a run-up to the nomination. The guy is almost gilded, it's obvious he's been groomed for something more than a bridesmaid position. Right now I'm thinking we'll se an Edwards/Huckabee race in November with Huckabee taking the office by a razor-thin margin.

what if one of the two evil choices must be made and there is no third choice?The problem with politics is if you break down the voting records of both parties, they're nearly identical. Parties advocate and candidates run on polarizing issues that are meant to cause division, but on 90-95% of the issues, there's no difference between the parties. It's basically a one party system. You have this group of neoconservative liberals that call themselves the Republican party pandering to the Christians by promising sweeping reforms and the passing/enforcement of laws that approximate Biblical guidelines (but is the nation really "more Christian" than it was in '94 when Repubs took control of congress?). Then you've got the other party taking the exact opposite stand--basically to be taking the opposite stand, to get the support of everyone else.

Two parties, opposite agendas, and a nation divided by these endless but impassioned debates about which party to support and whose ideology is the right ideology. Meanwhile the borders are wide open, inflation is roaring out of control, the federal government is getting bigger and bigger under the most fiscally liberal administration ever, and the dollar is taking like the Titanic. And all the fake news channels brought to us by corporate-controlled media are selling the election on emotion instead of issues, because the fundamental issues that should govern politics don't garner the kind of ratings that blind hysterics, irrational analysis, and character-actor politicians do.

There isn't any way to fix a system that's broken. You can abolish parties and make candidates run on the strength of their own personal platform and voting record, but then the race becomes one of who can get the most financing, and likely whoever ends up in office will have sold out long before the election.

The only solution is to pray and take action to spur Christians to bring about the kind of revolution Jesus talked about, one where people change the world because Christ has changed them, not because of backdoor deals and military might. That's the only way this world will become a better place.

[kshsj777]

The only solution is to pray and take action to spur Christians to bring about the kind of revolution Jesus talked about, one where people change the world because Christ has changed them, not because of backdoor deals and military might. That's the only way this world will become a better place.

You are absolutely right, wgjones!

As the slogan goes, "The only hope for peace, was born in the Middle East."

[Derby]

'everything that's evil like abortion and homosexuality for example.'

Look at Paul in 1 Corinthians 6.9-11
A list of ten offenders who will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
But they are all invited to be washed and sanctified and justified, leaving their sins behind.

Are they in priority order of nastiness?

There are 4 sexual offences and they hold spots 1,3,4,5
One is 'homosexual offender' - not homosexual
Three of the sexual offenders could be heterosexual, 1,3,4
The homosexual offender is number 5, the least offensive of sexual offence?
I would move number 2 to the top - idolater

I am on the list

[Hisart]

There is NO way in Heaven, on Earth, under the Earth or any place else, that I would vote for Hillary. She advocates everything that's evil like abortion and homosexuality for example.
Well, the way most people carry on, you'd think that there weren't any evils at all outside these issues...
Well yes of course there's other evils, Ransom. I just listed the first two that came to mind.
But you see, that's my problem with this whole bloody Kingdom of Man, political co-opting of Christianity... Why those two? ...
If you asked me (no one did, but I'm spouting off anyway) any of the above issues are far more important to me than regulating who non-believers sleep with or whether a bunch of Babylonians abort their kids...

Pro 6:16 These six The Lord hates; yea, seven are hateful to his soul: 17 a proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 a heart that plots wicked plans, feet hurrying to run to evil, 19 a false witness who speaks lies, and he who causes fighting among brothers.

Psa 106:37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons, 38 and shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan; and the land was defiled with blood.

Jer 1:5 Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I consecrated you, and I ordained you a prophet to the nations.

Eph 1:4 according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

Yes greed is bad, and saving the enviroment from the greedy is good, but killing innocent children, having their blood on my hands, is not what I want! I will never vote for anyone that will put children's blood on my hands, EVER! This act is in God's "top seven HATED acts" list! This is the act that has defiled the U.S.A.!

Lev 20:13 If a man also lies with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be on them.

These two will always be the most important questions in our modern political enviroment!

Vote Jesus.

Jesus is the Word so vote according to the Word!:cool:

[jacks girl]

Way back Ransom you said something that baffled me. What did I say that made you think that i thought most people on here were republicans cause i never thought that at all. Not even close. LOL just curious cause i really have no clue.

Second I'm tired of voting for the lesser of the two evils that is what i did when i voted for bush the first time.

I would vote for any party point me to a person. That won't try to kill babies, wont let gays get married, wont try to take my guns, and wants prayer back in school and i'll sign up. I don't understand why i can't find a democrat that stands for these things. if there is one PLEASE point him out.

Most of the time I vote Rep... and i'm tired of them. bill Clinton would have never let the fuel prices get this high. Besides he was entertaining too.

Jacks

[Derby]

Hisart

Do any of your quotations refer to abortion?

Pro 6:16 These six The Lord hates; yea, seven are hateful to his soul: 17 a proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 a heart that plots wicked plans, feet hurrying to run to evil, 19 a false witness who speaks lies, and he who causes fighting among brothers.

Psa 106:37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons, 38 and shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan; and the land was defiled with blood.

Jer 1:5 Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I consecrated you, and I ordained you a prophet to the nations.

[Ransom v. Unman]

And as someone once said.... The "Lesser of Two evils is STILL EVIL."
True 'dat.
but what if one of the two evil choices must be made and there is no third choice?
Time to move to Europe, or start stockpiling armaments.
Way back Ransom you said something that baffled me. What did I say that made you think that i thought most people on here were republicans cause i never thought that at all.

You mentioned something about "the other side", and in the context, it seemed like you were implying that none of us could be on the Democrats side. Sorry if I misunderstood you.

@ Hisart & Derby – Let's clarify something real quick: according to the Torah, the life of an unborn child is not the same thing as a child who has been born. You killed a child who'd been born – you got killed. If you stuck a woman and caused a miscarriage, the punishment was not the same as if you killed her or damaged her. There was punishment, yes, and this indicates that the life of an unborn is still of importance, but biblically, they are not recognised as the same, cf. Exodus 21:22.

There are a lot of other reasons, both historical and modern, that make abortion a MUCH more difficult issue than power-hungry politicians would have you think. Either way, I will not be electing any official solely based on their stances towards abortion. There's a lot of innocent blood on our hands even if we don't count abortions, and I'd dare say those "Christian" right-wing, "pro-life" politicians that have co-opted our faith so successfully are a big cause of it.

[Hisart]

@ Hisart & Derby – Let's clarify something real quick: according to the Torah, the life of an unborn child is not the same thing as a child who has been born. You killed a child who'd been born – you got killed. If you stuck a woman and caused a miscarriage, the punishment was not the same as if you killed her or damaged her. There was punishment, yes, and this indicates that the life of an unborn is still of importance, but biblically, they are not recognised as the same, cf. Exodus 21:22.

Exo 21:22 If men strive and strike a pregnant woman, so that her child comes out, and there is no injury, he shall surely be punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him. And he shall pay as the judges say
Exo 21:23 And if any injury occurs, then you shall give life for life {Execute}

There are a lot of other reasons, both historical and modern, that make abortion a MUCH more difficult issue than power-hungry politicians would have you think. Either way, I will not be electing any official solely based on their stances towards abortion. There's a lot of innocent blood on our hands even if we don't count abortions, and I'd dare say those "Christian" right-wing, "pro-life" politicians that have co-opted our faith so successfully are a big cause of it.

I will never vote for a bloody handed politician!

[Ransom v. Unman]

Exo 21:22 If men strive and strike a pregnant woman, so that her child comes out, and there is no injury, he shall surely be punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him. And he shall pay as the judges say
Exo 21:23 And if any injury occurs, then you shall give life for life {Execute}
It's a tricky passage to translate, because there could be implications that go either way. Like I said though, there are a lot of issues surrounding abortion arguements. I'm not saying I'm pro-choice (I'm not!) but what I am saying is that I won't vote for any politician based on their stance concerning this issue alone.


I will never vote for a bloody handed politician!
But you see mate, so many "pro-life" politicians are also in cahoots with the gun lobby, the military-industrial complex, unregulated and oppressive trade practises, social Darwinism, and opposed to social aid programmes that might otherwise prevent more abortions than simple illegalisation that even if you vote pro-life, you still run an incredibly high risk of supporting the bloodshed of innocents.

Show me someone who stands against abortion and all the aforementioned political causes of death, destruction and degradation, and I might consider voting for them. Huckabee does not match this. From what I can tell, Ron Paul might be getting there, but I'm still not familiar enough with his entire platform to know for sure, and he's probably got a snowball's chance in perdition of getting the nomination anyway.

The main thing I want to get at is that there are other issues just as important – and I might dare say more important – to Christians than gay marriage and abortion rights. I find those two issues to be very good for covering the wool over believers eyes when it comes to the more important issues, concerning which most politicians left or right do not stand on the side of Christ , humanity or justice.

[Rebecca]

I would vote for any party point me to a person. That won't try to kill babies, wont let gays get married, wont try to take my guns, and wants prayer back in school and i'll sign up.



I hear you! Although, I'm not so sure about prayer in school--I prefer a moment of silence. But that's another discussion. ;)

A while back, an acquaintance said something I thought was very interesting. Despite what the pro-homosexual lobbies say, there is no law prohibiting gays from getting married in the US. They can marry whoever they want--same as the rest of us.

The only caveat--they have to abide by the same rules as the rest of us. This means that homosexuals already have the same right to marry, but they must marry an adult human being of the opposite gender.

So, the debate of "homosexual rights" is really... pointless. There are no rights straight people have that homosexuals do not.

In terms of abortion... I'm unapologetically 99.9% pro-life. The only time I feel abortion is morally excusable is in a medical situation such as an ectopic pregnancy. In such a situation, the child will definitely not survive to viability (even with medical intervention) and the mother will also die of a ruptured fallopian tube. In such a case, both mother and child will die without terminating the pregnancy; it is better to save one life than allow both mother and child to perish.

This is not to be confused with late-term abortions done "for the health of the mother." In the case of late-term (partial-birth) abortions, the child is potentially viable, and could be delivered vaginally or through caesarean. The "health of the mother" is a flimsy euphemism for "the mother is having second thoughts." In my mind, that is completely inexcusable.

All that to say that I agree--my pro-life stance plays a huge part in the way I vote. It is a litmus test for me. If someone doesn't respect the basic right to life of our most innocent and helpless citizens, how can they be trusted at all? I can't see myself voting for someone who isn't pro-life, with one exception. The only exception would be if the opponent was so heinous that to not oppose him would be irresponsible.

Just my $.02... er... *looks at the length of the post* more like $2.00. :o

[kshsj777]

Exo 21:22 If men strive and strike a pregnant woman, so that her child comes out, and there is no injury, he shall surely be punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him. And he shall pay as the judges say
Exo 21:23 And if any injury occurs, then you shall give life for life {Execute}


I agree with this. I have also this argument elsewhere.

Another thing to note: There aren't that many verses dealing with abortion, because at that time, Jews considered children a blessing, and it was women that were barren that were looked down upon. I'm not saying that Jews or anybody else at the time never had abortions, but I am saying that the general understanding would have been that it was wrong.

[Hisart]

... I can't see myself voting for someone who isn't pro-life, with one exception. The only exception would be if the opponent was so heinous that to not oppose him would be irresponsible.

Just my $.02... er... *looks at the length of the post* more like $2.00. :o

Ya, if Hitler ran against Hillary I'd have to vote for Ross Pero!:rolleyes:

A mighty fine two dollar post at that!:D

[Ransom v. Unman]

Ya, if Hitler ran against Hillary I'd have to vote for Ross Pero!:rolleyes:

Well, this is essentially why I don't vote for any of the real candidates... The difference might not be so stark, but in the end, I cannot honestly confirm that Hillary (or Obama) is better or worse than anyone running against them for the particular task of running this country.

I would watch out for conservatives courting the Christian vote though. That basically is how Hitler came into power, and by the time believers realised him for who he was, it was too late. And we do remember what they say about forgetting history, yes?

[jacks girl]

I agree with you Becca. A moment of silence works but i want the 10 commandments back, if only the ones that make good sense.

Ransom i went back and read what i typed. I just meant to say which one of them would you vote for if you had to vote Dem.

Great new cite

Jacks

[Tamera]

If those were my only choices, I would vote for the first time since I was old enough.

[kshsj777]

I hear you! Although, I'm not so sure about prayer in school--I prefer a moment of silence. But that's another discussion. ;)

A while back, an acquaintance said something I thought was very interesting. Despite what the pro-homosexual lobbies say, there is no law prohibiting gays from getting married in the US. They can marry whoever they want--same as the rest of us.

The only caveat--they have to abide by the same rules as the rest of us. This means that homosexuals already have the same right to marry, but they must marry an adult human being of the opposite gender.

So, the debate of "homosexual rights" is really... pointless. There are no rights straight people have that homosexuals do not.

In terms of abortion... I'm unapologetically 99.9% pro-life. The only time I feel abortion is morally excusable is in a medical situation such as an ectopic pregnancy. In such a situation, the child will definitely not survive to viability (even with medical intervention) and the mother will also die of a ruptured fallopian tube. In such a case, both mother and child will die without terminating the pregnancy; it is better to save one life than allow both mother and child to perish.

This is not to be confused with late-term abortions done "for the health of the mother." In the case of late-term (partial-birth) abortions, the child is potentially viable, and could be delivered vaginally or through caesarean. The "health of the mother" is a flimsy euphemism for "the mother is having second thoughts." In my mind, that is completely inexcusable.

All that to say that I agree--my pro-life stance plays a huge part in the way I vote. It is a litmus test for me. If someone doesn't respect the basic right to life of our most innocent and helpless citizens, how can they be trusted at all? I can't see myself voting for someone who isn't pro-life, with one exception. The only exception would be if the opponent was so heinous that to not oppose him would be irresponsible.

Just my $.02... er... *looks at the length of the post* more like $2.00. :o

I agree with this, Rebecca. I had to be born 3 months early by C-section, or else both my mom and I would die. I forgot what the condition was called, but she was allergic to the placenta? and her kidney's shut down. If they didn't perform a C-section, both of us would be goners. This way, Mom would be fine and I'd have some chance to live, even if only 40%. But 40% was better than 0%

And obviously since you're reading this, I survived. :) But not without about six months of my parents wondering every moment if I was going to die or not. The doctors did tell them they had an option to pull me off the ventilator and let me die.

There was no way my parents would do that. My mom told them, "I want her treated as though she's going to live, not as though she's going to die!"

My life means something, and so does the life of every single child developing in his/her mother's womb.

This is part of the reason why I am so pro-life. I already know that without a moment's hesitation, that I would die in order to save my children's lives.

[jacks girl]

Really good point 777. Some may think it wrong but I can't vote for a man that will kill babies. i would stay home first or as Tommie said and write in Paul Harvey or such. I feel that when I vote for a babie Killer that I have blood on my hands. I actually ask the Lord to forgive me if it was wrong to vote in Bush because of the blood that has been shed in this war.

Jacks Girl

[Hisart]

King David was a man after God's own heart and a battle hardened warrior, yet the only blood God held against him was the blood of Uriah the Hittite!

[Ransom v. Unman]

Uhhmm... That's not true. God wouldn't let David build the Temple because of how many people he killed.

Ezekiel 18. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Those who live by the sword die by it.

[Hisart]

Got a verse?

[Ransom v. Unman]

I Chronicles 22, verses 7-8 particularly.

[jacks girl]

is that you in the pic ransom I can't tell you look like your in pain. LOL Sorry for kind of Hi jacking this for a min.

Also I worry about things. In no way was I saying everyone that voted for Bush should ask for forgiveness though it might not hurt LOL.

Jacks

[kshsj777]

I'm not sure what to think about the war in Iraq.

But what exactly would you have Bush do? If we pull out Iraq will be taken over by insurgents, or collapse into a state of anarchy. Our country is largely dependant on oil, and the U.S. needs a faction favorable to them in power in order to ensure we can keep getting the oil.

But the problem is, most Islamic groups in Iraq are against the US because we supposedly represent Christianity, and because we're just about the only country that supports Israel.

[Ransom v. Unman]

I'm not sure what to think about the war in Iraq.

But what exactly would you have Bush do? If we pull out Iraq will be taken over by insurgents, or collapse into a state of anarchy.
Actually, even with us in Iraq, this is happening.

Our country is largely dependant on oil, and the U.S. needs a faction favorable to them in power in order to ensure we can keep getting the oil.
OR...

We could start taking major leaps to get ourselves off oil dependency and develop alternative energy sources.

And we're still the very best of friends with states with rather sketchy human rights and counter-terrorism records like Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and UAE.

But the problem is, most Islamic groups in Iraq are against the US because we supposedly represent Christianity, and because we're just about the only country that supports Israel.
Actually, the main reason you find Iraqis becoming more strident against the American occupation is because of how we destroyed their countries infrastructure, opened the place up for terrorist predators and factional in-fighting, how we've carried out a draconian security policy in an attempt to maintain order, and because the main interests being protected are not the people of Iraq, but the ways in which American companies can profit off of Iraq's resources.

A movie I highly reccomend...

http://www.noendinsightmovie.com