It's getting deep LOL Spirtiual Gifts

[jacks girl]

Do you think that the gifts are no longer in use. I think they are not. I think that we could have any of them right now that we wanted if we prayed for the. There is nothing like the feeling of speaking in tongues. Its a sign, there is no way that we could do this to ourselves. It's a miracle to me every time the spirit falls on me and allows me this precious visit with him.

I know there are other gifts. I'm not too smart when it comes to discussing the Bible and what I believe but I know what I feel and I know this is real.

Jacks

[kshsj777]

Okay. Some spiritual gifts are for today and some are not.

For example, gifts like prophecy, healing and miracles were so that the apostles could establish the authenticity of their writings. In 1 Corinthians, when it mentions those gifts, it was one of the first books written when the apostles were doing that. New Testament books written later, after a lot of apostles had died, those gifts aren't mentioned anymore.

And we certainly aren't supposed to go around trying to get all the gifts. Even the passage in 1 Cor, ch12, towards the end of the chapter, Paul says that not all people are prophets, not all people can heal, not all can speak in tongues etc.

The Holy Spirit decides who gets what gift, and we don't have any say in it. Not only that, but in the following chapter, Paul says all those gifts are worthless if we don't have love. Instead of trying to get all the gifts, we should be focusing on loving one another.

[melw]

No one gets all gifts, nor does one gift outweigh anyone elses. You do not have to havea certain gift to have the holy spirit. I have done a few gifts inventories. Noe on one Creativity was my top spiritual gift. I guess i am using that now, that God has increased it as i grow in my spritural life.

I do belive healing and miracles still happen. And i have diffferent view of speaking in tounges. I blieve you can be in a country and not know that you have spoken in someone's native tounge. I have heard of a story in the last few years wher that happened.

MEL

[lynnmosher]

It's too late for me to answer. Will have to come back tomorrow. My brain has shut down.

[kshsj777]

I do belive healing and miracles still happen. And i have diffferent view of speaking in tounges. I blieve you can be in a country and not know that you have spoken in someone's native tounge. I have heard of a story in the last few years wher that happened.

MEL

Yes, those things happen, but three things:

1) God is one doing the healing
2) Speaking in a language you don't know, rarely happens. Or else missionaries wouldn't have to spend six months to a year learning a new language
3) Most "miracles" are faked (not all, though)

[jacks girl]

First I didn't say for us to pray for all of them. I will read where it says to pray for a gift so i can quote it correctly. But I think we still have all of the gifts at our fingertips if we have the faith and if God thinks we can handle the gift.

I know what you're saying and I respect your opinion but I also have to disagree with you. i think all gifts are for now. I think we do have a say in it. You're not going to get the gift of tongues unless you pray for it. I'm going to read some more on this and that is why I asked this question. We all need to study more and learn more.

Jacks

[Rebecca]

I don't mind deep discussions, but we have to keep it civilized. There's enough evil in this world for Believers to fight against, and we shouldn't spend our energies battling one another--especially over secondary doctrine.

No one has stepped out of line yet, so this isn't a chastisement. It's just a reminder. ;)

[Ransom v. Unman]

For all the cessationists out there...

What's the biblical precedent for saying that the "gifts" have left us? Like, where in the Bible does it say "And miracles will stop"?

[lynnmosher]

I was just getting ready to ask that...puzzlement...:confused:

[kshsj777]

I never said that miracles don't happen. They happen rarely, but they do happen. The point is, people aren't able to go around and heal whoever they want.

Yes, in the book of Acts for example, the apostles did heal people, but that was to establish the fact that they were from God and that they were authentic.

Most "healings" you see on TV are fake, frauds. They try to manufacture these gifts, but they're really just wolves in sheep's clothing, trying to get you give them tons of money.

[kshsj777]

By the way, Jesus didn't heal people all His life. He only healed people during His three-year ministry as a way of authenticating Himself as from God, as the Son of God, as God Himself.

[Ransom v. Unman]

I never said that miracles don't happen. They happen rarely, but they do happen. The point is, people aren't able to go around and heal whoever they want.

Ah! An important caveat to clarify your former statements.

I think I'm in utter agreement with you, in that case.

[kshsj777]

That's good, Ransom.

[Derby]

Jacks Girl

I find it wonderful that you speak in tongues - I want to ask you lots of questions.
Did you pray for it?
May God give the gift to a person who has not prayed for it?
What do you experience before, during, after, later still?
Is it later translated, to help others?
Can a listener benefit without it being translated?

I think you are greatly blessed in this.

Someone said are the gifts still in use? - I would say they are still available.
I think an OT prophet says 'In the last days I will pour out my Spirit...'
This has seemed to happen in various historical revivals.

I don't seem to have received special gifts, only the use of natural abilities such as they are. But I have found that in times of need the Lord has supported me : the extra spiritual support is quite tangible and is accompanied by great peace.

Derby

[jacks girl]

Hi Derby,

I will try to answer all of your questions. First let me say. This isn't something I control or say I think I'll speak in tongues tonight in church. You have to be what i called prayed up. No slacking on your praying, and most the time I've had my mind on the Lord a lot through listening to his word or to good preachers on tape. I am 41 and have spoken in tongues 6 times may be more but you treasure each time and once when I prayed for a child the tongues came out fast and strong and the child that they thought was going to be born with a birth defect was born whole. Did i do that no way... Did God use me in some way. I don't know but I'm glad i was there to pray.

I find it wonderful that you speak in tongues - I want to ask you lots of questions.
Did you pray for it?

Yes i prayed for it I prayed many times before I got it, not sure why we have to wait but I guess it's the Lord teaching us to be patient.

May God give the gift to a person who has not prayed for it? "I know he could but I don't think he will give us a gift we don't want. He may give us a small taste of it so we will see how great it is then we'll ask for it, or more of it.

What do you experience before, during, after, later still? "Most of the time when I'm speaking it's when I'm praying for others. There is nothing like the spirit, if it be tongues, dance, shouting, what ever you do when the spirit comes on you its great!! During I would say is wonder and praise, after most of the time you feel weak. Like you are drained but yet energized inside. Sometimes I've had to sit down because our mortal bodies can only take so much of the spirit at once. Later you are just totally amazed that it was you that had this wonderful experience.


Is it later translated, to help others? "I think if this happens while you are praying for someone there's no need for translation. It's you talking to the Father. I'm sure there are other tongues too but there is an unknown tongue and I don't know what it is that comes out now and then when the spirit wills. When I've spoken in the past it's been while praying or praising God. I've never had it interupted by my own self nor has someone jump up and say.. she said ..... Is this wrong? I dont know. All I know is that if it comes to me I'm going to let if flow. if someone else in the building is offended they can say so. But they never have.

Can a listener benefit without it being translated? Sure anytime you see the spirit move it shows us and reminds us how real God is. I've seen many things. One time a lady danced all over the church, she fell and hit her head on a heater jumped right up and took off again.

[Derby]

Jacks Girl

Just what I hoped for, thanks.

My wife Jackie and I went to a praise evening while on holiday in Portugal, the leader was Dave Picken of ‘On Fire’ charismatic movement, who spoke in tongues, but quietly, unheard by most present. Jackie went to him about her great friend who recently died of cancer, and he was able to put her mind at rest about her dear friend, it was a much needed blessing for her.

She told me later about the tongues.

You speak of a more public expression of the gift. You imply a wonderful sense of group ‘abandonment’ – hence the lady who fell.
I wonder how akin it is to personal experiences when you are alone – it must be the same Spirit coming to us.

Teresa of Avila also comes to mind, she had many spiritual experiences and is almost infamous for them – amongst non believers – because of their near erotic language.

Thanks again, Derby

[jacks girl]

I'm thankful that your wife found some peace about her friend. The Lord's peace is so important. I have OCD and without the Lord I wouldn't make it. I hope I have helped you in some way to understand how wonderful the spirit is. I hope that you will seek out God more in your life as I try to.

We all can learn so much from each other. I feel sorry for people that don't want the spiritual side of God. I know people in my own family that don't have that extra touch and I don't see how they make it and I know their life would be better if they would turn their heart and body over to God.

Do you think that you might want to pray for a gift. I have prayed for the gift of healing too for I want to be able to be one of those people that can get a prayer through to God.

Thanks much for you interest

jacks girl

[Cymrugirl]

I never said that miracles don't happen. They happen rarely, but they do happen. The point is, people aren't able to go around and heal whoever they want.
Only Jesus has been able to do that.

Yes, in the book of Acts for example, the apostles did heal people, but that was to establish the fact that they were from God and that they were authentic.
Actually, the apostles never healed anyone. They prayed for God to heal people and God healed them.

Most "healings" you see on TV are fake, frauds. They try to manufacture these gifts, but they're really just wolves in sheep's clothing, trying to get you give them tons of money.
Can you authenticate your statement? I don't actually see a lot of healings on television, but I have seen them in person and they were very real. There are definitely wizards about, but that doesn't mean we should declare that most of anything we see is fraudulent unless we can produce evidence. I, for one, would be very hesitant, without evidence, to call something God might have done for His glory a fake.

[Ransom v. Unman]

Can you authenticate your statement? I don't actually see a lot of healings on television, but I have seen them in person and they were very real. There are definitely wizards about, but that doesn't mean we should declare that most of anything we see is fraudulent unless we can produce evidence. I, for one, would be very hesitant, without evidence, to call something God might have done for His glory a fake.

There have been docos and exposés on how a good many faith-healers (especially on TBN) actually had plants or fakes in the audience. I don't say that all of them are fakes (though "wizardry" seems to be more at work than "divine power", I definitely hear that.) I agree with your last statement there wholeheartedly, but would also add an "approach with open scepticism" caveat.

I've seen miracles too. Some really astounding ones that simply couldn't be faked. The Spirit is very alive and active, even in these days.

[Cymrugirl]

Indeed, skepticism about a distant miracle, one you can't observe up close is always a good idea.

There's a good deal of room between skepticism and declaring with authority (from that same distance) that something is fake. I'm simply bothered by Christians dismissing things with the sort of authority that doesn't quantify anything. It tells me that the person making that statement believes their word is final because it's their word - versus they have an opinion on something based on a collection of evidence which supports that opinion. I see this in doctrinal disputes constantly - whether secular (can you say evolution?) - or Christian.

I think a person who represents Christ (through his testimony) that steps up to the mic and says: God doesn't heal anymore or even God didn't heal that person even though they say He did, and then steps away without further explanation is not being a responsible witness. They're asking me to believe them over another witness - or believe them without the support of the Word of God - which tells me they must think I'm stupid. LOL

In short, I wish to bring balance to the force.

*runs away laughing hysterically*

[kshsj777]

Actually, the apostles never healed anyone. They prayed for God to heal people and God healed them.

When I said the apostles did heal people, I meant that they prayed to God and asked for the people to be healed. I wasn't trying to suggest that they somehow did it by themselves. God used them to heal.

[Cymrugirl]

When I said the apostles did heal people, I meant that they prayed to God and asked for the people to be healed. I wasn't trying to suggest that they somehow did it by themselves. God used them to heal.


Ah yes, but in English that's precisely what you said. And if a person wished to do an expose on you and your life they'd have a nice little quote.

Don't worry, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and believed that's what you meant. The presentation of the gospel is a weighty task. Even the tiniest slip up may reap judgments and pronouncements upon us we are not ready for. That is why, in passing such quick judgements on the legitimacy of others and the motivations of their hearts, I prefer hesitation. Blanket statements other than for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, rarely work for humans.

Rather than say, after a man has been found guilty by a court of law, "he is guilty," I believe that unless I too sit as his judge/jury and hear the arguments he has put forth on his own account, must merely say "that judge says he is guilty" because that is all I truly know about it.

You have based the commonality of miracles upon some information you no doubt have via various media sources on the legitimacy of televangelists. Even if they were all legitimately serving to glorify God, I'm not sure the culture of television evangelism is the best source from which our current doctrinal opinions on the active Spirit of God should spring. Television is generally unreliable not because there is nothing true to be found there, but because we cannot participate in what is happening on screen and discover for ourselves the truth of what is happening.

The greater testaments to the presence of miracles in modern society would come, I think, from people we can know and converse with. What do they say? Are they to be ignored due to a Christian cultural climate which is wary of false teachers?

How do modern testimonies regarding miracles correspond with the Word of God? How does the modern lack of miracles correspond with the Word of God? What does God's word say about miracles among His people? What does He pronounce, via His Word, about the gifts of the Spirit?

[Derby]

Lucia

Hi, I have a question please.

'What does He pronounce, via His Word, about the gifts of the Spirit?'

In 1 Corinthians 12 Paul lists among the manifestations of the Spirit – gifts of healing… miraculous powers.

He says – eagerly desire the greater gifts – is he referring to particular gifts in his list or is he referring to chapter 13, where he speaks of faith, hope and love?

Is he implying that the manifestations of the Spirit listed in chapter 12 come from faith, hope and love?

[Cymrugirl]

Perhaps only a word study could answer that question. In looking at the paragraphs of chapter 12 and chapter 13, it appears that Paul is ending his former statements regarding gifts of healing, gifts of prophecy, tongues and so forth by saying not everyone has them all - or has them at all - "but we should still desire the greater gifts." The use of "but" seems to infer that he is linking the previous statement with this new sentence. However, if we go by our own rules of English, the following paragraph where he enters a discourse on the beauty of love - comparing it with these gifts as being the more desirable - means it could also apply to the next paragraph. However, in Galatians he refers to love as fruit of the Spirit - which seems to imply that at some point, these qualities should, by perfection, become intrinsic to the born-again Christian nature.

There seems to be a dilineation between manifestations involving the Spirit operating in a moment to minister to someone (the power is always His and the Christian is never more than an instrument or vessel) and the manifestation of the Spirit in a personality - this would be the Spirit operating to incessantly transform the born-again, yet still habitually corrupt nature of man.

I'm certainly no expert. I've seen a LOT. A lot of fraudulent things - as well as a lot of real things. The biggest thing I know after seeing what I have is how mysterious God is - and unfathomable. His ways are not my ways. He chooses men I wouldn't choose, moments I wouldn't have guessed - to express Himself.

[Derby]

Lucia

A most elegant and edifying answer - thank you very much.

[Ransom v. Unman]

I'll add something to the I Corinthians 12 study...

Technically, those things in that list are called the "spirituals" by Paul. That word "gifts" actually isn't in the Greek at all.

What's somewhat implied, I believe, is that the gift is the Holy Spirit, and from the Spirit come such miraculous outpourings.

[Cymrugirl]

The spirituals? How interesting. Do you remember the greek word he used?

Perhaps, in this unusual instance, the English offered something more precise than the greek? The two lists seem markedly different. I figured a word study would need to occur to fully take in what he was saying.

[Ransom v. Unman]

The spirituals? How interesting. Do you remember the greek word he used?

Perhaps, in this unusual instance, the English offered something more precise than the greek? The two lists seem markedly different. I figured a word study would need to occur to fully take in what he was saying.

It's more like the theology behind most English translations filled in the blanks... :rolleyes:

Paul only uses the word "pneumatikon", literally, "the spirituals" in I Cor. 12:1, and we put a "gifts" in afterward, where the Greek for "gifts" (charismata) is nowhere in the verse. When charismata does occur, it is in a separate instance from the gifting list in 12:8-11, and all of those "gifts" listed in 12:8-11 are actually specifically described as manifestations of the Spirit. Basically, Paul's saying no one manifestation is better than the other, for they're all the same Spirit of God.

This, of course, all leads into Paul's explanation that it doesn't matter what kind of amazing manifestations of the Holy Spirit are occuring around you, if you can't get along with one another and fill your hearts with love, it's all worthless.

[lynnmosher]

Since Ransom is not around, I will attempt, keyword attempt, to insert a little bit here.

The Greek word is pneumatika, meaning emanating from the Divine Spirit, or exhibiting its effects and so its character, ascribable to the Holy Spirit working in the soul, and that which belongs to the Spirit. The same word used in 1 Cor. 14:1, “Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.” The word ‘gifts’ is added here also.

I'm sure he will give you a much more detailed and intelligent answer.

[lynnmosher]

Whoops! There you are, Ransom. Sorry I stepped on your posting!

[Ransom v. Unman]

Thanks for catching 14:1 for me, by the way. I hadn't even realised that there, again, we put in something that detracts from Paul's message so much, namely that these are working of God's power, and not little gifts given out so we can talk about how holy we are.

A dovetail on the whole note about desiring prophecy – in Judaism of the time, the chief purpose of the Holy Spirit's working and presence was for the sake of prophecy, i.e. that God would communicate with mankind.

[Cymrugirl]

It's more like the theology behind most English translations filled in the blanks... :rolleyes:

Paul only uses the word "pneumatikon", literally, "the spirituals" in I Cor. 12:1, and we put a "gifts" in afterward, where the Greek for "gifts" (charismata) is nowhere in the verse. When charismata does occur, it is in a separate instance from the gifting list in 12:8-11, and all of those "gifts" listed in 12:8-11 are actually specifically described as manifestations of the Spirit. Basically, Paul's saying no one manifestation is better than the other, for they're all the same Spirit of God.

This, of course, all leads into Paul's explanation that it doesn't matter what kind of amazing manifestations of the Holy Spirit are occuring around you, if you can't get along with one another and fill your hearts with love, it's all worthless.

Ah thanks! That was fast work - or good memory.

Mmm, I don't know if I'd say theology is to blame as much as our language itself. "Spirituals" is only used in English in reference to songs - "spiritual" in our language is not a noun - (at least that I can find an instance of - and that noun most likely wasn't implemented until long after this translation was complete) so to say to a person who speaks English "spirituals of the Spirit" is redundant, because "spiritual" means pertaining to or of the Spirit. The linguistic logic which leads to gift most likely stems from the fact that this noun - pneumatika is imparted - or given - and the noun for a thing which is given is "gift." So if penumatika is used in both places (meaning in the English translation which differentiates the two sections by using "gifts" and "fruit" which seem, to me at least, semantically quite different) then the question is why? I am aware of the theological leanings of certain translations actually changing the actual meaning of a few verses - but why that one?

I wonder if Paul was saying something more like "these things (put list here) are Spiritual." Or if 12:1 would be more accurate as, "Spirituality is." I don't have enough grasp of Greek sentence structure or grammar to determine as much from the sentence in its entirety. But I do think the actual structure of English has leant itself to this interpretation. What then, does Paul say we should hope for - does he use pneumatika again? And what of "fruit" of the Spirit in Galatians? Does he use that term there?

*really shouldn't be wondering when she's stuck at work without anything to flip open and have a look for herself*

Whatever the case, I have always deemed my own gifts from God to be the lesser of the bunch - in that list of ministry items anyway. But the love part, I can partake in that, thank heavens. I can still do that. And that is enough to satisfy me.

[lynnmosher]

Out of apx. 26 times the word is used, Paul uses it 24. As in the other two cases, 12:1 and 14:1, he uses it again in 1 Cor. 9:11, “If we have sown spiritual things for you, is it a great thing if we reap your material things?”

[Ransom v. Unman]

Ah thanks! That was fast work - or good memory. A little from column A, a little from column B...

Mmm, I don't know if I'd say theology is to blame as much as our language itself. "Spirituals" is only used in English in reference to songs - "spiritual" in our language is not a noun - (at least that I can find an instance of - and that noun most likely wasn't implemented until long after this translation was complete) so to say to a person who speaks English "spirituals of the Spirit" is redundant, because "spiritual" means pertaining to or of the Spirit.


What Paul does is he takes the word for Spirit, pneuma and makes a form of the word which is still a noun, but now more something that's referential. Pneumatika might be best translated "things pertaining to the Spirit". I can't remember the technical Greek/linguistic terminology, but from the context alone it should be fairly obvious Paul is listing off different forms of the manifestation of the Holy Spirit (cf. 12:7, "phonerosis", note too that this word is singular, again undermining this idea of "gifts".)

A word of advice: when examing the Bible, NEVER project English linguistic rules onto either of those languages. Much heresy has become immensely popular in recent times through such practise...

The linguistic logic which leads to gift most likely stems from the fact that this noun - pneumatika is imparted - or given - and the noun for a thing which is given is "gift." So if penumatika is used in both places (meaning in the English translation which differentiates the two sections by using "gifts" and "fruit" which seem, to me at least, semantically quite different) then the question is why? I am aware of the theological leanings of certain translations actually changing the actual meaning of a few verses - but why that one?


It's not so much a translation problem, in my mind, as it is just tradition giving us a meaning. From the context (even reading in the KJV) it seems fairly obvious Paul's talking about stuff that happens when Spirit manifests, and not a list of gifts that are imparted on people. I think someone in the early or Medieval (or shoot! Reformation church, why not?) caught the use of "charismata" in 12:4 and developed a theology around it about how God would give us these spiritual "gifts" or "powers" or whatever, and it's been a popular and well-received teaching (we all want to believe that these "gifts" are ours, after all, and not just something that happens at the Spirit's uncontrollable will) and no one's ever thought to change or challenge the notion, though it does lend itself to a theology bordering on Christian witchcraft. :eek:

/breathes

Anyway, that's why I point this out, I suppose. I've seen this whole thing about "spiritual gifts" abused so badly, having come from Texas where the Word of Faith movement reigns supreme, that when I found out that this whole idea that God just gives these powers to us is actually a misrepresentation of Paul's teachings, I've always wanted to debunk the thought of it.

Sorry for being a killjoy again, if indeed that's what I'm being. I have a bad habit of that... :o

[Ransom v. Unman]

Actually, a better verse to base any kind of theology of "charismata" on would be found in Romans 12, where Paul does use the term in reference to prophecy, ministry, teaching, giving, etc. But it should also be noted these "charismata" here are not the kind of wonder-working powers we typically think of with spiritual gifts, but are in fact offices to which we are called to.

/rubs chin

I'm looking more carefully at the use of charisma in the 1 Corinthians 12 context, and it further seems evident from the singular nature of the word near the end of the chapter that this actually refers to the Holy Spirit gifting these supernatural manifestations out, i.e. if it's a gift from the Spirit, it's actually much closer to the English notion of gift than we make it out to be. In essence, if you get healed, that is a gift from the Spirit.

Fascinating indeed...

[lynnmosher]

Ransom, I'm a little confused. Ha! Nothing new! So give me your explanation then of 1 Cor. 12:28-30, if you would please.

[Derby]

Ransom: 'the gift IS the Holy Spirit'

Referring back to the opening post, from Jacks Girl, she implies much of the result of the reasoning in other posts. She says:

-She does not control when she speaks in tongues
-Her phrase is - 'when the Spirit comes upon me'

She asks if I intend to pray for a gift? - or you for that matter.
She has also prayed for the gift of healing.

I pray for faith, hope and love - and see what comes each day - I don't know if that is a shortcoming.

[Ransom v. Unman]

Well, the "gift" in there is singular (charisma not charismata) and it's used once in a phrase with healing. Actually, both times charisma or charismata comes up, it's referring specifically to the healings, in essence, saying that the healing one receives is a gift.

Put it simply – when one receives a healing, this gift (e.g. the healing) is a manifestation of the Spirit.

[Ransom v. Unman]

Ransom: 'the gift IS the Holy Spirit'

Referring back to the opening post, from Jacks Girl, she implies much of the result of the reasoning in other posts. She says:

-She does not control when she speaks in tongues
-Her phrase is - 'when the Spirit comes upon me'
Well, I think that's perfectly in line with Paul's thinking here...

She asks if I intend to pray for a gift? - or you for that matter.
Paul says to pray for manifestations of the Spirit – one of those being a gift of healing. In that sense, yes, I pray for "gifts" as well.

I pray for faith, hope and love - and see what comes each day - I don't know if that is a shortcoming.
No, that's exactly what Paul wants us doing. If that is what you pray for, and better, practise, then you're doing fine.

Again, to clarify, the issue I'm having is how we think of these manifestations of God's Spirit as gifts for us that we get to keep on some level. They aren't. The only gift listed in this whole passage is the gift of healing, which is pretty hard for God to take away, unless he uses His Spirit to maim you once again. >.<

[Cymrugirl]

What Paul does is he takes the word for Spirit, pneuma and makes a form of the word which is still a noun, but now more something that's referential. Pneumatika might be best translated "things pertaining to the Spirit". I can't remember the technical Greek/linguistic terminology, but from the context alone it should be fairly obvious Paul is listing off different forms of the manifestation of the Holy Spirit (cf. 12:7, "phonerosis", note too that this word is singular, again undermining this idea of "gifts".)

A word of advice: when examing the Bible, NEVER project English linguistic rules onto either of those languages. Much heresy has become immensely popular in recent times through such practise...

Oh, completely agreed. English - though I love her - is largely lacking compared with the greater depth of all the Biblical languages - but especially the precision of the Greek. Your very paragraph above shows that in English, describing what Paul is saying without an added noun "things pertaining to" is nearly impossible. Sometimes our greatest problem in discovering the depth of the Word is our own language, imho. I would never project English to the point of redefining what is being said - ever. I do think most of our translations have done a pretty good job of relaying the original text. English is hardly precise - which for poets and novelists, is a great thing and gives room for puns and wordplay, etc. - but can be cataclysmic when it comes to actually relaying precise information. A "gift" in English, though perhaps precisely defined, can have multiple connotations - and it is the connotations of that word that I think have caused problems. Every good and perfect gift comes down from the Father of lights - this we understand. What humans can't seem to separate is ownership. My parents gave me what I had as a child, yet I didn't own them in the sense that I had full control. They could take back what they had given, because in reality the gifted item was theirs all along. Using English, I would call God using me instrumentally, in whatever fashion, a gift - something good bestowed upon me - a choosing - a singling out. To me that is a 'gift.' So in that sense "spirituals" are gifts just as the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a gift in and of itself. However, I don't own the Holy Spirit - He owns me.

Yet, in this particular language, that linguistic progression or reasoning is not the only linguistic path available - and that, I think, is where the cult steps in - sometimes, even initially a well-intentioned cult - but ultimately a cult.


It's not so much a translation problem, in my mind, as it is just tradition giving us a meaning. From the context (even reading in the KJV) it seems fairly obvious Paul's talking about stuff that happens when Spirit manifests, and not a list of gifts that are imparted on people. I think someone in the early or Medieval (or shoot! Reformation church, why not?) caught the use of "charismata" in 12:4 and developed a theology around it about how God would give us these spiritual "gifts" or "powers" or whatever, and it's been a popular and well-received teaching (we all want to believe that these "gifts" are ours, after all, and not just something that happens at the Spirit's uncontrollable will) and no one's ever thought to change or challenge the notion, though it does lend itself to a theology bordering on Christian witchcraft. :eek:

I would jump to agree with you except....and this isn't a disagreement....this is where I think the definition becomes humanly difficult again. When a specific type of manifestation reoccurrs within a specific individual consistently, there is a human effort to label that. I have known individuals who as English would put it, had a specific 'gift' reoccur within them time and time again. It's a linguistic labeling of a specific type of manifestation beyond a one time occurrence........and I'm not entirely sure Paul isn't saying we should pray to be used (desire the better gifts) in these manifestations that are paramount in promoting/glorifying the Kingdom of God. There are clear examples of those who misunderstood the manifestation of the Spirit as a type of witchcraft and actually attempted to purchase it - there are examples of the apostles finding individuals who they didn't believe were "licensed to heal" doing so in God's name, etc. The manifestation of
the Almighty - it would seem - is as fathomless and indescribable as the Almighty - because He is the Almighty.

*thinks she has resorted to rambling*

Anyway, you've hardly been a killjoy. Any questions I raise are out of genuine curiosity and I adore answers. I know few people in my circle who are willing or interested in discussing theology at all - and in fact survive in a cultural context that belittles it as self-righteous pomposity in an effort to excuse laziness.

Rant, diagram, examine, edify, and sharpen away! Contructive discussion - the kind which aids in ridding dragon scales - biblical curiosity when it is genuine.....well, that's I live for. I don't have time enough to study the whole thing by myself. Not to mention the intellect/education to support such a study. What's more frightening to me at thirty-three is that I have begun to forget some of those things I have already lovingly studied. Nothing frustrates me more than that. I live by grace....I study by grace.....

I am continually growing in my ignorance every day - at least, the knowledge of my own ignorance. Isn't that what Solomon found so devastating? Isn't that what he found so vain in constant, aggressive, study? I wonder if it was. That in increasing knowledge our selves decrease - we grow smaller - we feel not infinite, but infinitely powerless. Sounds vaguely familiar....

Do I sound weak? I feel it.

In the end, I realize wisdom is greater than knowledge, because retention isn't an issue.

[Cymrugirl]

And I believe, Ransom, that you have already more succinctly said what I have just posted....

[Cymrugirl]

*is seeing your notes on the usage of "charismata" in Romans*

Excellent. You work fast. So there's that. Lands sake there are fast posters in here!

[Ransom v. Unman]

Sometimes our greatest problem in discovering the depth of the Word is our own language, imho.
That is something proven to me over and over as I delve deeper into the original language of the Bible.

The manifestation of
the Almighty - it would seem - is as fathomless and indescribable as the Almighty - because He is the Almighty.

*thinks she has resorted to rambling*
No, I think you're understanding the whole passage quite well, actually...

I know few people in my circle who are willing or interested in discussing theology at all - and in fact survive in a cultural context that belittles it as self-righteous pomposity in an effort to excuse laziness.
You said it, not me, but yeah... It seems to be the popular thing among adherents to... well... anything.
In the end, I realize wisdom is greater than knowledge, because retention isn't an issue.
QFT.

(Speaking of retention, you do remember what that means, right? :p)

[Ransom v. Unman]

*is seeing your notes on the usage of "charismata" in Romans*

Excellent. You work fast. So there's that. Lands sake there are fast posters in here!

I'm a professional.

/points to "Super Moderator" label

/reminds everyone about the #1 poster status at the Lord of the Rings Online forums

/wonders how he ever gets work done...

[Cymrugirl]

Apparently simply posting "Spazz" is unacceptable for its shortness on this forum. However, I believe I have just remedied that issue.

Spazz

[Ransom v. Unman]

I fixed your last post.

Thanks. :p

[Rebecca]

/reminds everyone about the #1 poster status at the Lord of the Rings Online forums



Ha! I did not know that. :D

[Cymrugirl]

LOL


Well, you know in the 80's when I first heard the term, it was just spaz.

But by all means, I stand corrected.

[Ransom v. Unman]

There have been differentiations in spelling, but the early 90s punk band Spazz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spazz_%28band%29) solved the dilemma for me. And not, your tongue kind of lingers on that last sybillant in the word, and it looks more symmetric when you spell it with two Z's anyway.

[eddif]

Spiritual gifts. Boy! What a way to get everyone going.

I guess from my thoughts the best way to get into this subject is to go back to the Old Testament first. Why there? Because as a rule they are considered New Testament actions. The OT is the "Git er Done" part of the bible. Did not matter how you really accomplished anything, just take 500 folks with weapons and go for punishing whoever or whatever needed it. God seemed to understand they were not baptised in the Holy Spirit, and allowed their actions (winked).

When you get to the spiritual gifts, all of a sudden you are expected to get things done in a nice way. The spiritual gifts are needed, but they need to be practiced in love.
A good doctor can take 5 strong men and throw a person suffering from appendicitis down on Main Street and remove the appendix ( it is right under the surface), but the patient, two of the strong assistants and most of the onlookers, especially if they are children, may need long term counseling. So "Git er Done" has become "Lord I should have not said that". I hope Reverand Larry does not mind using "his" quotes. I would be a little afraid of asking that doctor mentioned above to do surgery on me. So let us go slow in grabbing any one and suddenly healing them. Or for that matter I hope I did not grab anyone and force my thoughts on them.
Belton

[Ransom v. Unman]

Spiritual gifts. Boy! What a way to get everyone going.

I guess from my thoughts the best way to get into this subject is to go back to the Old Testament first. Why there? Because as a rule they are considered New Testament actions.
What about Elijah?

The OT is the "Git er Done" part of the bible. Did not matter how you really accomplished anything, just take 500 folks with weapons and go for punishing whoever or whatever needed it. God seemed to understand they were not baptised in the Holy Spirit, and allowed their actions (winked).
It's worth noting that the Holy Spirit was active in the midst of warfare according to the book of Judges and the Psalms.

[eddif]

You always have types and shadows of things to come, but the ultimate reality may be off in the future. Joseph in Egypt winds up as a type and shadow of Jesus, but is not the reality of being The Christ. He was seated on a throne with the power to help others (Jesus in heaven) etc.

We can still think we need our stones to take care of problems , but we can practice love and turn the stones over to Satin for the destruction of the flesh. Our battle is not against flesh and blood, other than ourself, and even that battle is gentle.

Gravity and buoyancy exist at the same time. Gravity tries to sink the boat, and buoyancy tries to push it up and away from the water. There are spiritual laws that go in different directions, and sometimes it is hard for us to understand the direction (law) the other person is using.

The way we do things today is more gentle and structured toward peace than in the OT, but not less powerful.
Belton

[Ransom v. Unman]

The way we do things today is more gentle and structured toward peace than in the OT.
Belton

...but you wouldn't know it by looking at how most Christians act and what they support.

*AHEM*

Okay, I'm not neccessarily disagreeing with you on one hand. In the NT we definitely see a de-emphasising on the place of nationalism and warfare in the spread of God's Kingdom*, but my question is do you think the nature of the Holy Spirit's work changed from OT to NT? Do you think the Holy Spirit was involved in the OT at all?


* - Mind you however that this downshift was anticipated by some nine-hundred years of nationalism in God's name seriously getting it wrong and is expressed beautifully in the writings of the prophets and many sagely works in inter-testamental literature.

[lynnmosher]

I'm sneaking in a short opinion, not worth two coppers. The OT says that the Spirit came upon people, for He could not possible have lived within anyone as Christ had not been born and died yet. So, yes, He absolutely worked as God's influence on those in OT times. That's all. I'm not good at discussion. So carry on.

[Cymrugirl]

Lynnmosher's comments are always worth more than two coppers to me. :D

The idea that Christ's coming was an intersection of peace doesn't necessarily fit the violent uproar that his presence historically caused. Of course, a great deal of the fissure that broke open was between members who already subscribed to the beliefs of the Old Testament and those who accepted Him as the new covenant. So when he declared that he brought a sword (a quote that many who support war like to use), I suspect it's quite possible that he spoke only of that - and of course of the coming and present persecution of the saints.

However, some of the most successful political revolutions which have greatly freed the gospel and brought freedom to people in general have been headed by those who claim Christ as their King. I cannot, with good conscious or Scripturally supportable definity, say that God would never use warfare in this modern era. The motivations for war - for defense - for offense against the despot - are essential to determining its place within the context of our Christian faith - and even then, I find this question extraordinarily difficult.

Were we wrong to fight against a tyrannical Hitler? Should the United States never have been formed? Was the government that was formed (which is, incidentally, as human as you or I and as accountable) wrong to demand that slaves be set free?

To say that Christ would not support this - that a Christian must not - on the basis of Christ's messages regarding peace and love and focused spirituality - seems out of balance with his command to love our neighbors as ourselves - to minister to the helpless - to be purveyors of freedom.

Are those who condemn war, I wonder, creating a differentiation between philosophical violence and physical violence? In other words, do they determine that the church can undermine a government whose laws prohibit evangelism by preaching in its streets secretively, but can't undermine that same government physically in an effort to free its people openly? What is the difference? The physicality of the fight? To what end do we follow this reasoning? To allowing the despotic to rob the world of its ears to hear and eyes to see? I understand that physical violence snuffs out a life - it ends an opportunity for a person to accept the message of the gospel - but was it not the same under the old covenant? How were the Persians different? Did they have no individual human value to the Almighty like people do now? Perhaps I am rebellious enough to believe that God has actually loved humanity in its entirety - even the worst among us. So I find this differentiation difficult to swallow.

In otherwords, within the context of a living Word of God that proclaims that Word was in the beginning with God, and all things were made in the Word, and that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and is the same yesterday, and today, and forever - was David right to fight Goliath only because he historically preceded the Word becoming flesh and dwelling among us? His coming (Christ's) tore the veil - it broke through the barrier which had previously barred the average Jewish believer from communing personally and individually with the Spirit of God in the Holy of Holies - but it didn't actually alter the Spirit of God. His Spirit is the same - and I believe the Spirit operates the same, only in a wider capacity among the people of God.

Before the sacrifice of Christ, in the Old Testament, the adherent to God's law was unclean due to his own inherent humanity and, of course, his actions. Adherents of the law (many who were and are considered righteous) participated in physical warfare. With the advent of Christ, what changed? Not the law. Not the Spirit. Not even the adherent to the law. Would David, in a Christian world, be unrighteous for defending Israel - because Christ's own righteous actions altered the righteousness of David's actions under the old covenant?

I just don't see how righteous behavior (the kind recorded in the old testament) can suddenly, due to the coming of of Christ, be, now, unrighteous. If anything, Christ took what was unrighteous and made it righteous rather than the other way around. He didn't preach "what used to be good is now bad" rather he taught "what used to be bad - you - is now good." He set people free - he didn't bind them. He was a liberator, not a bringer of new laws.

*asks forgiveness for thinking out loud*

And yet we know why Solomon and not David was allowed to build the temple of God.....because David had spilled so much blood. That has always been an oddity to me. That God commanded David to shed blood, then barred him from what would have been a great love for that very bloodshed.

I don't think the question of war will ever be a simple one. And, I admit, I'm viciously skeptical of anyone who says it is.

[lynnmosher]

Lucia, Thank you for your sweet comment. I'm honored. I wish I had the ability to pen my thoughts as you do. I thoroughly enjoyed reading your post. You always word your thoughts so eloquently and elegantly! And I stand by what you have said.

Just as an added thought…The peace Jesus talked about was internal, not external. Jesus said, “Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division.” Luke 12:51 NKJV

That division is caused by the living Word, “For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” Heb 4:12 NKJV It was the separation of the spiritual from the worldly.

The peace He left us was for our hearts. He said, “Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.” John 14:27 NKJV

We are to have that peace in Jesus, for He said, “I have told you all this so that you may have peace in Me. Here on earth you will have many trials and sorrows. But take heart, because I have overcome the world.” John 16:33 NLT

I don't even know if I said that right. I have a headache and not thinking so straight. So forgive me if I boo-booed!

[eddif]

The Holy Spirit worked in the OT.

Most OT commands came from the outside ( prophet,angel, vision etc.) Then the thinking man tried to carry out those commands. Man might not have always done things the best way, but he did get things done he was commanded to do.

The NT promises a more inward work, and the fruit of the spirit is love, joy,peace, etc. We try and get things done intermixed with the fruits of the Spirit. Live at peace with all men, as much as possible. Do we mess up at times? Sure, but in my lifetime I do not remember a stone throwing service to kill a member in sin.
Belton

[Cymrugirl]

How is the Holy Spirit working through a human prophet on the outside? Was he not a thinking man? Was he not a man? Prophets who were OT containers of the Holy Spirit often shed blood themselves. Samuel. Elijah. Elijah. Elijah.

[eddif]

In the OT, most of the time, an individual did not usually hear directly from God. Most information came through a prophet or angel. Kings seeking an answer, or those seeking things from God (a child, a wife) would hear from a prophet. Signs were often sought from an outside source, or an outside individual, and God helped them that way.

The OT persons did fight against flesh and blood. The NT person fights against powers in heavenly places. Very little discussion is in the OT about who is actually behind evil (some comments though). The new testament is full of answers to what is going on.

Heaven seems to be a place that will actually finally see peace. We are headed that way.

Jesus was the source of a lot of things in his day. He said he must go away so that the Holy Spirit would be in them (us). Jesus had the power to win, but he chose the way of the cross, and received more than if he had victory in the flesh. I can practice anger and violence, but I struggle against that. Do I always seek peace? No! Am I called to seek peace? Yes. There is still warefare today, but it is usually those outside who bear the arms. I do not judge violence in the world, that is up to God.

If all this upsets some of you; I can choose to know only Christ and his work. There is a Baptism in the Holy Spirit that exists also. We are first lost -John's baptism; then saved -Jesus's baptism and finally empowered - the Holy Spirits baptism. John (repentance); Jesus (salvation); Holy (empowerment). Father (John); Son (Jesus); Spirit (Holy). I am not a preacher, but I am sure getting off my area of comfort.

Symbolism is where I operate in peace. and that is where we should let me stay. I think silence in these other areas might be best for us . PM me if you have a question. Nerves carry information in the human body (from the head to the body) and ( from the body to the head). So in my world the angels are the ultimate thing we learn from the human nervous system. Angels carry messages back and forth from and to God. If we believe in nerves it ought to be easy to believe in angels. Is that a more peaceful area for me to comment?
Belton

[Cymrugirl]

Oh, I'm not upset, I'm still just trying to understand how you separate prophets from men as though they weren't individuals and they weren't human. You seem to be removing them from the equation you're using to reach your doctrinal conclusion.

[eddif]

Thanks for working with me. If I am able to explain this it will be more than any of us hoped for.

How many people would God like to have a relationship with? I suppose a lot of folks: Jews, Greeks, bond, free, male, female,poor etc. How many of those people would he like to have a personal relationship with? All?

The law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. So the law (in its complex form) was a temporary thing. In a general/simple form it still helps convince us of our sins. The law was good and still is not a bad thing. I am supposed to use the Law lawfully. Can I fully explain that? No.

Prophets were especially used for a time to be a contact method. Were they individuals? Sure. We really look on their office though (for the main function), and not dwell too much on their humanity. We do admit that they were human though, and I suppose we might see sin. If you looked into some of the areas of our lives, you might not be encouraged. We still take the work done by some people and rejoice, because if we totally looked on the flesh we would probably spend a lot of time in tears. Prophecy is still one of the gifts, and still ( in my readings) listed as an office, but it seems that individuals are seeking and receiving from God on a one to one level. I can look at the prophets a lot, or I can look at the God behind the prophets. I hope this is like the law somewhat. I could dwell on the law or try and use it lawfully. I could dwell on the prophets or use them lawfully. Do I respect and honor them? Yes. Do I think present day persons on all levels benefit from Jesus and the Holy Spirit? Yes. If David could not build the temple, that did not stop his spiritual place in history. Prophets were really servants to the people, and it took a lot of their personal life away.

The royal priesthood we become is not perfect. There was but one perfect man. I would sure be in sin to think that my life is perfect, and although I respect and honor the prophets their lives still had a human side. Some of my former sins drive me in the direction I now go. I try harder knowing what a jerk I have been. Faith in Jesus saves me though, and not my changes.

If we look at the prophets do we just see God or a total package?
Belton

[Ransom v. Unman]

If the Law was just some trifling, temporary tutour, why did God bother spending the first five books of the Bible to base everything that He reveals upon it?

Why does it matter to us now if it was something just there to keep the Jews under control until Jesus came?

[Tamera]

Fakes and frauds do not negate the fact that miracles and healing do exist and are from God. I was healed instantly from fibromyalgia a few years ago and it is incurrable. I have medical evidence of the healing.

Most people don't understand the gifts because they are in 3 catagories.

The manifestation gifts:
These gifts are God working through an individual at a specific time and for a specific purpose. Nobody possesses these gifts. They work through people as God wills although sometimes some people are more open to being used in some of these gifts than others. ie: healing, miracles, faith, tongues, interpretation, prophecy, word of knowledge, word of wisdom, discerning of spirits.

The ministry gifts:
The gifts are God given abilities to do ministry. Examples are administraition, exortation, teaching, prophecy, helps, hospitality, giving, etc.

The office gifts:
These are positions given to people to serve the body. ie: Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor, Teacher.

Nowhere does it say that the gifts ended with the apostles.

[eddif]

Quote If the Law was just some trifling, temporary tutour, why did God bother spending the first five books of the Bible to base everything that He reveals upon it?

Why does it matter to us now if it was something just there to keep the Jews under control until Jesus came?
__________________
The bible starts with creation. Creation is described as good, and communication with God is going on. There are hints that sin exists, but mankind is not involved with it. It does not seem long before sin has managed to arrive, and the first attempt to save mankind has started. I suppose the slaughter of animals was required to cover the nakedness of mankind. So an external symbolic dealing with sin is started.

Sin continues and we go through Babel and the flood. The flood at least has a hint of the need of inward salvation. Sin still exists and mankind needs direction and help.

When about 1 1/2 books have passed, the law starts to be established as a method to help direct lives and create a potential for the awareness of sin. Later in the NT we find that the law was added because of transgression.

The rest of the first five books help in wilderness wandering and promised land dwelling. A new ordinance will need to be written every time something new comes up.

This thread was started to discuss the spirituals, and in one sense it still is staying on target. There is a great difference in external and internal guidance. The whole understanding of spirituals depends on this fact. I do not believe internal and external are ever separated, but we need to know the difference. Jews and Gentiles are in the Christian Church, or will be according to your beliefs. There are ways to get things done and sometimes better ways. A doctor trying to keep you alive with drugs till surgery may not be best, but surgery on a corpse would do little good. Dealing with the symptoms of sin may not be best but it kept us alive (genetically) until Jesus made it on the scene.

We should all be thankful for the Law. Repentance has a lot of heritage from the law.

The Spirit was involved with the Law. The Spirit was with us in Jesus. The Spirit is in us after Pentacost.
Belton

[Cymrugirl]

The Law is God. It is the Being of God. His attributes are the mark that we miss. The Law cannot be separated from Him. It wasn't temporary. It was a diagnosis.

Here he is - and there we are. Far apart.

In Him we live and move and have our being. In Him He lives and moves and has His Being.

Christ's coming and dying and resurrecting didn't change the nature of the Law because He cannot change Himself. It simply granted a pardon. The Law is the same. Man is the same. Only the judgement has changed because we have an Advocate.

[Daniel]

I will say that this has been interesting reading; I can't believe I read through all 7 pages of it! I will add more later but I just wanted to say that I do believe that they are still in use. After all, why would God stop using the "manifestations of the Spirit" to edify his people?

To say that the gifts were talked about in 1 Corinthians and not later in the NT, as someone pointed out, means that they are no longer in use is not Scriptural, it is just a presupposition. By saying that Jesus died for our sins is Scriptural because there are verses backing that up. To point out something so easily, not to mention taking the letters out of context, especially when there is no Scriptural basis for it, makes me leary about what else is a "theological throw-in". After all, they are letters to different churches at different times with different problems that Paul was writting to. Not to be used as a context for an outline as to how and when Spirituals gifts are no longer in use.

Secondly, most arguments that I have been running across, both from atheists and Christians, come from other arguments where those presenting them don't quite understand what they are saying or the history and purpose as to what they speak; the word knowledge provided by ransom has proved handy. And that is why it is so important for the roots of our faith to be understood, to be sought out so that we can have a clearer understanding of what Scripture says, especially when we argue, in a healthy way mind you, about it.

I had a talk with a man who was, shall we say, learned. He was telling me that tongues were no longer "in use". I asked, "why do you say that?" His answer? I leaned in closer. "Because the Bible is put together." In other words, now that we have the "written" word of God, we no longer need the "gifts of the Spirit". Coming from both a baptist and pentecostal background, and also wanting to know more about the faith roots, I saw this answer also as a presupposition. Made me wonder about his understanding of the manifestations. After all, why dance around something when there can be an intelligent talk about it?

Why believe everything we read or taught? I had an education at a liberal college, and I am glad I did. It taught me not to believe something so simply without exploring it or experiencing it. And yet my life, which has more years attached to it then my "grand education", God has used to teach me not to be afraid of what is different or feel that my faith is "threatened" when people question my belief, or when I question it, because it has been given to me by God and begins and ends in him.

[Derby]

Jeremiah

What a sensible post.
My wife sometimes admits to a lack of academic knowledge. My reply is that her sackful of common-sense can be worth much more than a library-full of books.

As an illustration I am just reading quite an old little book, 1984, "Worship" by Graham Kendrick. He points out something about the continuing manifestations of the Spirit discussed in 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 regarding the proclamation and edification of the Church. While there are to be leaders, an exercise of self-control, and order as opposed to confusion, the real dynamic of the meeting is still the presence of the Holy Spirit pouring out the love and grace of God through the faith and love of the believers as they met to glorify him and bless one another.

[Daniel]

Jeremiah

What a sensible post.
My wife sometimes admits to a lack of academic knowledge. My reply is that her sackful of common-sense can be worth much more than a library-full of books.

As an illustration I am just reading quite an old little book, 1984, "Worship" by Graham Kendrick. He points out something about the continuing manifestations of the Spirit discussed in 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 regarding the proclamation and edification of the Church. While there are to be leaders, an exercise of self-control, and order as opposed to confusion, the real dynamic of the meeting is still the presence of the Holy Spirit pouring out the love and grace of God throught the faith and love of the believers as they met to glorify him and bless one another.

The lack of academic knowledge isn't a bad thing, and those who have it should value those who don't. I say that because those who have been academically trained can, although not all the time, lose common-sense or some other perception that their academia has given them; and those who haven't been academically trained should not attempt to push aside the knowledge that that person has gained and is willing to share. They both can benefit from each other very greatly.

It sounds like Mr. Kendrick hit it right on the nose. Worship isn't just about singing or, "Hey, let's meet together and fellowship and sing and have a little bible study along with it." Another one would pipe up, "Yes! We need the word of God!" On and on it goes where it becomes a cheesy movie. At least that's how I end up seeing it. I have found that worship becomes worship when we help others in need, when we give a listening ear or help a brother/sister out to give them confidence, to show others that they are not worthless.

I have written a quote in my bible about worship by William Temple:

"Worship is the submission of all our nature to God. It is the quickening of conscience by his Holiness; the nourishment of mind with his truth; the purifying of imagination by his beauty; the opening of heart to his love; the surrender of will to his purpose - and all of this gathered up in adoration, the most selfless emotion of which our nature is capable and therefore the chief remedy for that self-centeredness which is our original sin and the source of all actual sin."

The gifts are still in use, at times we have made ourselves unknown to them, or degraded ourselves by saying, "I'm not worthy, I'm worthless dirt." How dare we call ourselves that when Christ himself chose to die for us? Or maybe we just don't "see them in use" because we are taught that they aren't in use and so we become blinded to their usage and when the Spirit reveals something about us that he placed within us we question it as to the devil trying to fill us up with pride or whatever nonsense. Do you see a teacher? Do you see a preacher? Or how about a person in church that has shut themselves off from others? Do you see the poor and lonely? Do you have compassion? Do you have a quickening in your spirit, in your mind and heart about a person and you go talk to them? We aren't essentially to go around and try to "see inside the other person", but how the Spirit moves it moves where it will. I find it more often the perception, our conception of a certain "doctrine" needs to change, and when that changes, we can see things differently. I say that more for myself then anyone else who reads this. Unfortunately the abuse has also cast doubt upon their existence.

Shalom.

[grimsleygl]

Wow! Again I say Wow! What a post we have going on. Churches have split and more likely new denominations have sprung up from this very topic! So much written on the subjects of the gifts of the spirit, and one can see why; it "is" most interesting.

I’m fairly confident that St. Paul spent so much time on the subject of tongues in this writings concerning the gifts of the spirit just for this very reason of the church being split for the lack of agreement.

I’m out of my league with what as developed in this conversation as I am not well educated, so what I have to say may not be of much interest to many of you, but I do come with a bit of personal experience in this area and a deep desire to learn all the Lord has to teach/show me about Him and His word.

If anyone is interested, I'd like to share my testimony about the subject of "tongues” (That is what the original question was about...right?)

I have been Southern Baptist for quite some time now and, believe me; this denomination does “not” believe that this is a gift by any stretch of the imagination. However, I am a bit of a rebel within the Baptist church and have been for quite some time I suppose.

One hot summer afternoon years ago, (I was in my early 30’s) I was sitting in my yard catching some rays of the sun and reading my Bible. I shut my eyes and wanted to just worship the Lord. I began thanking him and felt so drawn to go inside where it was cooler and where I could kneel before Him.

As I knelt by my bedside, I was overcome with emotion and did not know what to say or how to share the adoration that seemed to be bubbling up in my heart…all the sudden, I began to feel fearful! I thought…”oh dear, am I about to pray in tongues?”

Not know much about this spiritual language that Paul talked about, except that it couldn’t be bad or Paul himself would not have boasted that he “talked in tongues more than the rest of you,” and that he proclaimed he did this in his “prayer closet”, I knew it had to be from the Holy Spirit. Because I did not understand it though…I thought that “if” I let go and, God forbid, I began talking in some strange language that I would not have control over it and I might end up doing this in church or somewhere that would be totally embarrassing.

So…I said, “I’m sorry Lord, but I don’t want this gift.” I got up and that was that…until about 20 years later when I was overseas with an international/interdenominational missions training organization (YWAM).

Since this has become so long, I’ll continue later this evening from home.

[grimsleygl]

Sorry it took me so long to get back. My mother went to the hospital again last night and I've had quite a busy day.

I do want to finish up with my testimony about the gifts of tongues though, but first to say to Jack's Girl that I agree with those who have said they "do" believe the gifts are still available to us. I have not read anywhere that they would be taken away from believers.

Now to finish the testimony: While on the mission field and based in England, there was a time when my husband was going on tour with a musical group and I had hoped to go with him. However, because of a serious problem with a tooth the dentist had advised me to stay close to where we were living at the timed.

I remember being so very disappointed after he left. That first night after he left, I went to a friends flat and before long I was sharing how I was feeling so blue and down.

We talked and they prayed for me and as I was getting ready to leave, Jane said, "When you get in bed tonight, why not just spend some time crying out to the Lord...worshiping Him and praying in tounges!

Well, you could have knocked me over with a feather. No one had ever suggested I talk/pray in tongues before. I said, "I don't speak in tongues."
She said, "What do you mean, you don't speak in tongues?" I explained that I had never been around this kind of thing before and once I "thought" I might be getting ready to pray in tongues but I got scared and said, "no thank you, Lord."

She said, "anyone can speak in tongues. It's a gift but it's the least of them because it's one that focuses on you and the Lord rather than helping others. If you desire to have this gift, just ask God and you'll have it! She also reminded me that the Holy Spirit is a gentleman and never, never forces Himself upon us and therefore I would always be able to decide when I wanted to speak or pray in tongues.

I explained that I was not sure I even wanted this gift because in my mind...it was the least of the gifts and I wanted the gift of love more than any. She said, "but why not both?" When I asked what good it would do to have it, she told me that as I was getting ready to head off to India soon, that it would be very valuable for me then. I wasn't sure why but I thought, "if this would help mke in my ministry in India then I surely want it."

So...next she said she would help me. Immedately I said, "I do not want someone to spoon feed me words to say. If it is of the Holy Spirit then I don't need this. She said, "no, that's not what I meant...I will just give you a few pointers to help." She said, "It's like learning any language, you start out not being profcient in it...it's awkward and kind of embarassing even. You need to ask God to allow you to speak to Him in this heavenly language and help you with it."

Then she said that when I was alone and ready, I should start out crying out to the Lord in my normal English and then allowing any word or utterance to come out that wanted to once I had gotten to the place where I no longer had words to say to the Lord. She said, "first a word will come out...one sounding like a child's made up word...and then another. You may begin with just two or three words and feel awkward about them." She said, "don't give up. Keep repeating them until you begin feeling peace and comfort. Then you will have a new way of reaching out to the Lord when you don't have your own words to express what's deep in your heart. This is when the Holy Spirit is interceeding to God on our behalf."

I tried it! Yes, it was terribly awkward and even embarassing, though I was all alone in my flat. But, as I began talking to the Lord in my regular language, I began crying. Much like a baby cries, I began sort of blubbering at first. I thought, "surely, this is not a heavenly language." Then a word kept coming out of my mouth over and over and then another one that was strange. I did not like the sound of it and in my spirit asked the Lord to give me different one if this was from Him. He did!

That was how I began praying in tongues and I've never done this in front of others but it's a very personal thing for a very personal time with the Lord!
And...now when I'm driving alone...sometimes I sing in tongues and it's so awesome. The tunes come out sort like a Hebrew sound. It's such a sweet and precious gift.

Oh yes, and it did help me in India. So powerful! But...that's another story.

Blessings everyone!

[eddif]

The following has no hidden meaning, other than to show a relationship between spirituals and fruit.

Jewels are the beauty manifest in natural stone formations.
Wit is sometimes the beauty manifest in intelligence.

Fruit is the nourishment provided by a plant.
Love, Joy, etc. are the fruit of the Spirit.

A building built on stone is stable.
A building adorned with precious jewels is desirable.

A Christian well founded is stable.
A Christian who exudes love is audible.

Gifts of the Spirit should be adorned by fruit of the Spirit.
Speaking the truth in love; Priceless!

++++++++

I am enjoying the posts. Keep it up! Poets make corrections as needed.
Belton

[Timber Wolf]

I believe that God gives His gifts to us as He sees fit.

I also believe that if He gives us a gift and we don't use it He will remove it and give it to someone else. So do we need to exercise the gifts given us? Yes.

Does everyone have every gift? No.

Does He give gifts for a season? Yes.

Do I see any reason to believe He has stopped giving any of the gifts? No.

[Joshua Brown]

I believe that God still uses all the spiritual gifts. I find no evidence to suggest anything to the contrary. In fact, my main gift is discerning of spirits. I also operate in the area of the prophetic. Let me tell you, those are some wild areas to be used by God. It's also fun to worship in your prayer language sometimes. Worship is just fun in general...but I digress.

In the end, we shouldn't sweat the details. The Bible does say, and even a cessationist could agree with me on this, that the most important of these is love. Without it, we become like a "resounding brass or crashing symbol." The gifts should be used, like any other tool God gave us, to edify the body and overall, to advance the Kingdom of God. Paul had to scold the church in Corinth because they were fighting each other over who was more spiritual. Some who had one gift were lording it over those who had different gifts. This still happens today, does it not? We should be concentrated on unity of (1) bringing the Kingdom of God and (2) unity among the Bride of Christ.

[lawi]

i yearned and prayed to speak in tongues for three years one morning i felt to go to the forest and pray before service and lo! i found myself deep in prayers and speaking in strange tongue i was so exited it was July 2006 i remember it ...... i remember the day very well coz form there my prayer life took a another dimension...... miracles are happening today more i see pple being born again prophets are there and they are prophesying and great things are happening we are living in exiting times were technology is connetiong saints all over the world in site like CW i thing its wonderful ,,martyrs, missioners are out there ....intercessors , writers, musicians , i thing God is doing great things in our time more for there to be Christians growing with the challenges of present age is abundant grace
in my country God has just been doing great things prophets were send before elections and predicted what will happen and it came to pass
Intercessors prayed against Islamic agreement with the opposition and though the opposition won in votes but ..it dint happen ....and the glory of the later church shall be strong then the early church ..it will come to pass

http://jesusfreak-lawi.blogspot.com/

…………………الرب قام بالحقيقة [He has risen ]

[babaharry]

Does it makes any sense that God would block the gifts of His Spirit,after the time of the Apostles; when we are all called to pray and live in the Spirit at all times?

I agree that these gifts used without love and wisdom have little value, and perhaps can even do harm. But we are are being trained here on earth to live in the Spirit of God in preparation for our time in eternity with the very One who sends His Spirit.

What is most important however is that we seek the Giver and not just the gift, then use whatever He gives us for His kingdom. Sounds very grand doesn't it? but He knows too how fallible we are; and is ready to forgive and help us to try again. Jesus is Lord!

Doesn't God live outside of time? do we limit God by our 'dispensational' assertions about what He gives and when He gives?