Dating vs Courting?

[kshsj777]

My parents want me to court, instead of date, because they want to keep me accountable to them and protect me from getting into situations where I could succumb to temptation.

Question, which do you think is better? Courting, dating, a little of both, doesn't matter...

And why?

[pajarita_deDios]

My parents had to same plans for myself and my sibligns when we were teens. As we grew into adults though it became more of an understanding that when we met/meet the person we want to marry, it should be a very different experience than that of the wordly view of dating. Because I made the decision not to date around, but rather to wait for the partner God has intended for me, I'm still waiting around... :p , but wait I will, and happily too. I'm an ultimate romantic.

[kshsj777]

Me too. I can't wait for Mr. Right to come along!

[Ransom v. Unman]

Y'know, aside from the terminology, I have yet to figure out the bloody difference between healthy and family-involved dating and courtship. Mind you, I've read all the Joshua Harris stuff, and it seems to me like he's trying to simply put an archaic term on a system of dating rituals that invite families to actively participate in their children's relationships. This can be a really good thing in some cases, a really bad thing in others. It depends on a lot of variables, namely, the maturity of all parties involved, the general health and functionality of the families, and the willingness of the participants.

[lynnmosher]

Kellie and Pajarita, I pray the Lord will bring the most wonderful, young Christian men into both your lives.

[pajarita_deDios]

Y'know, aside from the terminology, I have yet to figure out the bloody difference between healthy and family-involved dating and courtship

Me either Ransom. I didn't get into Harris' books very much, but as I've gotten older I've realized that having a healthy "family-centered" relationship doesn't always mean his or her family. Sometimes his/her families aren't the best people to be supervising the dating of their offspring. Besides, when two people get married, it's just the two of them and although the families may be involved, at the end of the day, it's the two people who go home together.

[kshsj777]

Kellie and Pajarita, I pray the Lord will bring the most wonderful, young Christian men into both your lives.

Thank you so much, lynn.

[pajarita_deDios]

Kellie and Pajarita, I pray the Lord will bring the most wonderful, young Christian men into both your lives.

Thanks Lynn! I hope so, and soon too, BUT...not too soon.

[Ransom v. Unman]

I didn't get into Harris' books very much...
Harris's books fail in that they can only really apply to a very distinct segment of our society. Fortunately for him and his publishers, that segment (well-adjusted, suburban, stay-at-home, upper-middle class) happens to also have the most Evangelical Christians in it who would subscribe (or at least purport to suibscribe) to his methods.

I find it interesting that even in his own courtship, his wife's parents were hardly involved, and their "courtship" hardly differed from a healthy dating relationship.

but as I've gotten older I've realized that having a healthy "family-centered" relationship doesn't always mean his or her family. Sometimes his/her families aren't the best people to be supervising the dating of their offspring.
Exactly. My parents, for instance, couldn't care much less for who I wound up with as long as they weren't overwhelmingly odious. I know a good many parents who are not only bad at judging others' character and assessing relationships, but they will actually take very negative personality traits as good things, and have ultimately failed at every relationship they had themselves! Parental involvement is often downright malignant, as many son-in-laws will readily divulge.

Besides, when two people get married, it's just the two of them and although the families may be involved, at the end of the day, it's the two people who go home together.

Again, another great point, and it segues into the next issue I take with Harris and his books.

/segue

While Harris does a great job of laying down safeguards to promote purity and at least make sure people are socially compatible with one another before getting hitched, he does nothing – absolutely nothing – to address the serious issues that exist within marriage - just between those two people. I may be mistaken, but I cannot once recall seeing pre-marital counseling, communication training, finance management, or (gasp!) sexual education (contrary to prevailing Evangelical opinion, "flying blind" into marriage sexually is not a good idea) perscribed in his books. They come across as a very long, nice rulebook on what not to do that some people can take or leave for whatever it's worth, but they still do not equip any young couple in the least for the actual experience of living life together.

I dare say they run the same fallacy that most fairy tales do, that if "the right one" comes around, it will all work itself out from there. And like with most people who base their lives around "fairytale" reality, I worry severely for the people who have taken Harris's books and little else into consideration as they embark on a marital relationship. And believe me, I know those people are out there...

[kshsj777]

I understand that it's not always possible to involve your parents when having a relationship, but then you'd need to find someone else. The whole point is accountability. If you have to answer to someone for your actions, you're a lot less likely to get yourself in a situation when you can be easily tempted to go too far.

And having an unbiased opinion helps. Many people can fall head over heels for some guy or gal, and are unable to see the other person for who he/she really is. And is it not a very good idea to go off alone with someone of the opposite gender. Even the most well intentioned Christians can get into trouble, and it's not worth the risk.

[wgjones3]

Many people can fall head over heels for some guy or gal, and are unable to see the other person for who she really is.


No kidding. :(

I'm the word's worst.

[jacks girl]

I didn't date much when I was young. Mostly because i was fat and boys didn't like fat girls. To me there is no difference in dating and courting. The only difference is the time period that the word is used in. they both mean two young people going out. People years ago dated in a different matter is all. The boys went to church to see the girls. Or they came to the house.
I think this is a fine thing to do. I think this going out stuff to a movie or to eat with no one with you is asking for trouble.

ages to date

1 through 14 should not even be allowed to say i have a boyfriend. no calling boys on the phone no going places with boys. none of that. I would be strict.

15 to 16. may be allow them to talk on the phone with a guy within ear shot of me who would be listening. NO boys over and no car dating.

16 to 17 still no car dating in my book the boy can come over for dinner, they can sit by each other in church a quick good night kiss

17 to 18 very limited dating away from home still. I would give them some alone time but not much. No car dating still until they are 18. then if they were home they would still not be out all night and would abide by the family rules.

i know this sound harsh but it is my rules. LOL you don't have to live by them but many people would be better off if they did.

[melw]

well i think it is good to be accountable, as you can go too far. I do not really understand the diffence between courting and dating. I also do hope that God will bring a wonderful Christian man for you both

MEL

[jacks girl]

Yes we all want you to find the right man. just ask yourself is God really going to bring him to your front door and set him off. I know he could don't get me wrong but I think you might need to do a little searching too. Just look in the right places. Singing conventions are great places to meet good young men. There is nothing wrong with looking. I met my husband on a cb radio, then he came to the house and even at age 17 I wasn't allowed to car date.

We didn't do that for about 6 months mom had to learn him and see that he wasn't a mass murder LOL...

jacks

[kshsj777]

We didn't do that for about 6 months mom had to learn him and see that he wasn't a mass murder LOL...

jacks

LOL Jacks!


And thanks Jacks and Mel. I hope Mr. Right comes soon, too!

[pajarita_deDios]

Even the most well intentioned Christians can get into trouble, and it's not worth the risk.

You're absolutely right, but I also think that sometimes we scare people so much into the thought that losing their virginity pre-maritally is worse than any other sin, that those who make the mistake see themselves as Christian failures.

I've known girls who would admit to all of their other failures, but keep that one as a deep dark secret. One of my really close friends and I were just tonight talking about how she was too afraid to tell anyone about her own mistake, and is now afraid that any good Christian guy might now be able to forgive her for it. I told her what I think my mom would have told her, that making that particular mistake, while not to be taken lightly, probably isn't the worst one she'll ever make.

I'm truly believe in saving oneself, and actively practice abstinence (which I guess in pretty inactive lol), but I defintely hope that in the future we will try to have more understanding for those who have already made that mistake.

Anyway, not sure why I hi-jacked for that tid-bit... :)

[Ransom v. Unman]

Well, it is applicable Pajarita... We're talking about dating, courtship, boundaries, purity, etc., I think the issue of guilt placed on anyone who's lost their virginity pre-marriage (especially women) is an issue that needs to be addressed.

On one hand, we do have Paul saying that sexual sins are in a different class than other sins, namely because they are a sin against the body of Christ, and the body of another. (Cf. I Cor. 6? Was it six? I know when I poke around my Bible I find it rather quickly. :p) ON THE OTHER HAND, however, we have a church culture that has developed a Freudian and nearly infantile fascination with matters of sexuality because of Paul's necessary rebuke to the Corinthians, and his occaisional mention of sexual matters in other parts of his letters, and of course, the Acts 15/Jerusalem Council decision that sexual manners of Judaism still applied to Gentile believers...

*Breathes...*

But the problem with all this is, while sexual sin is a grave and serious matter – yea, one that effects the very heart of a person who engages in it – if we look at the things that Jesus put an emphasis on, sexual sins fall very far back on the list. Jesus' main focuses were in regards to charity, forgiveness, mercy, love and general repentence. Vengeance killing, terrorism, institutional corruption and religious hypocrisy were the primary things he railed against, but strangely enough, I find very few Christians really giving half-a-crap about these issues as they do about tithing and sexuality.

As good as it is to stay pure and everything, we need to understand that purity and marital sanctity are basics of the Christian life. Like not stealing and not killing. Period. Jesus didn't give it the time of day because this was something all his people – y'know, Jews – learned from the get-go. Paul had to address it because it was a bunch of perverted gentiles that he was dealing with. But all in all, Joshua Harris's books, and all the many volumes about sexual purity, while they have their place, should not have the kind of ubiquitous stranglehold on the Evangelical mind like they do. It doesn't really speak well of us, or what we're fixated upon.

/sigh

Basically, lots of people sin in lots of ways – ways that hurt a lot more people than mere sexual impurity. Should we seriously be more concerned whether one of our brothers and sisters slept with someone outside of marriage, or the fact that right now millions are starving to death because of unfair economic practises that "Christian" nations institutionalised? Should we fret over the details of some idiotic pop-star's actions, or can we make do simply living by example, ignoring the moron, and getting on to issues that undermine the validity of the Gospel in the world's eyes, and also harm thousands upon thousands of individuals in the process?

Jesus told the adultress to go and sin no more. We can, and should, do the same.

[kshsj777]

Yes, there does need to be a balance between not taking it too lightly and not forgiving. Those sins aren't any more unforgivable than others.

[Rebecca]

Ransom, that was really a brilliant post.

[lindenbooks]

As a mother of young adults--my son is twenty-one, my daughter seventeen--I know that the health of the family is everything on this subject. And I don't mean by "health" perfection--that's not possible. But an open spirit in the home and mutual respect cannot be overemphasized.

My husband and I have gotten bashed often through the years over how we've raised our kids; sharing everything with them, being completely open about our own mistakes and even dissecting the mistakes of others by way of example--and respecting our children as individuals; not always demanding respect.

Today, our son doesn't date. COMPLETELY his choice; he's waiting for whoever God has for him, in His timing. We know the young lady will have to be VERY special! Our son has a mind that runs very deep, and his convictions are very strong.

Our daughter is the opposite socially. She is out and about all the time with all kinds of kids. I am so proud of how she can hang out with just about anyone and go just about anywhere and her personal faith is strong and intact. She is highly respected among her friends for this.

None of us are ever preachy. But, we believe what we believe strongly.

I'm not one of those people that ever falls to the thinking that "things are getting worse." I know that there have been times in history MUCH worse than they are now in our present society.

However, there is something to be said for the plague of immorality, and how it is breaking people down mentally. THIS is my concern, as well as it is God's; why He set up the "rules" in the first place, in order to protect us.

Anyway, I set up a MySpace page, just to be a "presence" there with my daughter and her friends. It's called PurityMom (http://www.myspace.com/puritymom). It's the "cliff notes" of what I believe, geared toward young people.

God bless those of you that are waiting in faith, with your eyes on Him and your hearts set on the good things that only come from HIM!

[lindenbooks]

oops...I got on my own "rant" and forgot to add--yes, that was a very good post, Ransom!

[Katibriah]

I agree. That was an excellent post, Ransom.

[Ransom v. Unman]

My husband and I have gotten bashed often through the years over how we've raised our kids; sharing everything with them, being completely open about our own mistakes and even dissecting the mistakes of others by way of example--and respecting our children as individuals; not always demanding respect.
Linden – that is the way we should raise our kids. I laud you for being brave enough to be honest, and for trusting them enough to not exasperate them. That speaks volumes about you and your husband and your children.


And I think it also speaks to the purity issue as well... Because you have been able to be open, honest and forgiving with your children, they are more geared towards the same habits with you. While I disagree with Freud in about as many ways as I agree with him, I think he had great insight into how our parental relationships form our relationships with significant others. If we want to see purer, more spiritually healthy children, it is a necessity that we raise them in such a way to undermine the desperation for a better "parent" of sorts in the arms of someone who could take advantage of them.

I'm not saying good parenting is foolproof, but it's amazing how much it helps. And seeing that your child is a complex individual, and not hiding your own complexity from them, does much more to help them develop healthily than simply hammering some sort of ideal into them. I think it's where my parents went wrong with me, and I hope to God that I don't repeat the same mistakes.

Anyway, kudos to you, Linden. I hope things continue to stay healthy, or at least, as healthy as they can get with teenagers. ;)

[lindenbooks]

Well, you've made my day, Ransom, thank you!

It is a passion of mine, and one not very well received by a lot of parents; to teach respect by GIVING it. Now that I'm middle-aged I feel I can step back and observe with experience; so many of my dear, dear friends (who I know have hearts of gold; good intentions) have suffered the consequences with their teenage and young adults, applying the "because I said so" type of rearing.

I've also seen a lot of healing going on in recent years, though, some of it ongoing of course, and I am so grateful. I've prayed with them and cried with them...yes, sexual purity is part of it; as you so aptly put it:

it is a necessity that we raise them in such a way to undermine the desperation for a better "parent" of sorts in the arms of someone who could take advantage of them.

Wow, is that ever TRUE!

And a parent doesn't have to be perfect (CAN'T be perfect), and transparency is the only healthy thing, I feel. So many of my friends that were impure, for example, when they were young and dating, hide this from their kids--yet insist on their kids being pure. When they aren't, there is deep disappointment (actually, hypocritical disappointment), and this pushes the kids away further.

I say, instead: tell your kids if you struggled in that area when you were young. Of course you don't tell them this when they are three years old--or even twelve. But as they go through adolescence, they are going to know more and more--more than you can believe they know! And if they hear it first from you, and you're very honest with them, they'll know they can come to you if they need to/want to. An honest example will go much farther than a fake one can ever dream of going.

Now, as you say, it isn't easy for any of us raising teenagers! My daughter, for one, doesn't like me to initiate conversations with her. I respect that, and only talk to her if I feel I MUST. Otherwise, I just pray for her and wait, and every once in a while she spills her guts and I love it! I make sure and never share a word of my own during these times--I don't want to miss one of hers!

So many of her friends don't feel safe at home, and my heart bleeds for them. Their parents are my peers, and I understand how jangled things have become in their own lives by years of wrong choices. But their kids have to pay, even though they don't understand. Often they turn to sex only because they feel lonely and unloved.

[ProfessorAlan]

It is a passion of mine, and one not very well received by a lot of parents; to teach respect by GIVING it ... and a parent doesn't have to be perfect (CAN'T be perfect), and transparency is the only healthy thing, I feel.

My wife and I have asked our daughter for her forgiveness on many occassions: when we've forogtten an promise, haven't followed through with her, or let her down in some other way.

Respect, grace, kindness, mercy, forgiveness: you teach these to a child by demonstrating them to a child.

[lindenbooks]

You know, Prof, I knew you were this way. It must have been something I read that you shared...wait, I'm thinking...I think it was a comment you made at Tanya's site a while back--yeah, that's where it was...ANYWAY, I knew you had the same frame of mind we do with our kids; you think highly of your daughter, share with her and respect her.

On the topic of "Dating vs Courting," I have to say that the semantics of it are important to me. It seems nowadays that dating involves sex, no question. At least that's what the media tells/shows us. "Courting," on the other hand, might be a word to represent loving and sincere attention given, without sex. It's too bad that it has to come down to semantics--but, that's the purpose of language, isn't it; to distinguish meaning?

And I agree with what was shared earlier in this thread; some parents aren't fit to decide what's good for their kids. I've personally known some parents that are worse than their kids in their morals. I know one Parent that always gets it right, though, and we all have access to Him...in my home, I didn't have my dad in the home when I was dating, so I turned to my very real relationship with my Heavenly Father, and He guided me right!

[A-M-Sanctified]

My parents raised my two brothers and I to lean more towards the "idea" of courtship.
I say idea, because the word means different things to different people.
To us, its been about accountability and staying pure...which can be done in dating as well.
It really depends on the people involved.
My parents had us each sign a paper saying we'd be accountable to them.
They each signed the papers too, saying they'd help to protect us from dangerous situations and that they'd be involved in our lives. Its hard to explain...I realize this may be sounding a little odd to you all, but it was pretty cool for us.
When one of us is interested in someone, we're open with our parents.
They've been supportive in the few occasions this has happened.
Honestly, I haven't dated and I don't plan to.
I want to meet a man, become friends, and develope something from there...hopefully marriage.
I don't want to just go on dates with a bunch of guys...testing the waters.
Now, I was raised in a healthy, Christian family.
My mom grew up as a Christian, but my dad didn't.
They've both been very free about admitting the mistakes they made when they were young, as well as the ones they make now.
As a result of that honesty, my brothers and I have had next to no temptation in the areas of drugs, smoking and heavy drinking.
They've given us respect and discipline, which we are grateful for.

[lindenbooks]

Amanda -- no it doesn't sound odd to me. I think it's great that it's worked positively for you and your brothers. My kids feel the same way about everything, as you described, but my daughter, especially, would howl if she had to sign anything. ; )

It all depends on our personalities and our individual family dynamics; what works. I think the last thing we should do is consider one another "odd" because something works for us that doesn't work for someone else--as long as it works!

You guys seem like a really neat family!

[dancingpsalmist]

These are great topics. I think I married a non-christian man just because I had been a victim and back 45 years ago no one in the church knew how to help young people, especially girls, who had lost their innocence through no-fault of their own. But then because of all the early experience, I am thankful I was never an unwed mother, God alone saw to that. My unequally yoked husband of 39 years just died recently. I am 63 years young, dynamic, and have been praying for a Christian song-writer man to come into my life and help me write songs. I feel it should be a single man that I could marry, because due to the volume of songs I have which already need to be set to music, it would be difficult otherwise.

I did things wrong when dating my nowdeparted husband and have chosen to live a godly lifestyle from here on out. Since I am looking for a godly mate, I want to be the godly person this godly mate will seek.

I think the other posts in this thread are great. However, I think you're eliminating one thing and that is that churches need to offer group opportunities for their young people to get together and be friends, long before they separate into couples. I want to help youngsters realize that.

I also think that a lot of times people who don't know what their creative bent is or haven't discovered it yet, get sexually active early because of the creativity they don't know how to channel. If you know your creativitiy and use it, you can prolong the other stuff. I firnly believe the reproductive part of the sex drive is very closely tied into creativity and if we teach young people creativity, we can avoid a lot of issues with teens having children or even young adults in their 20s having kids before it's the right time for them.

That's just some thoughts from a gal who chose unwisely and now has 39 years of regrets for the most part. Yeah, my husband and I have two sons, but the disparity in our beliefs has caused our sons to not be the strong Christians I would like them to be even though I had them in church from the time they were 2.

Ransom's thoughts are very good on this whole issue. I am less critical of a gal not being pure if she got that way through no fault of her own, and if she follows Christ's mandate "go and sin no more."