How strange - POD not a successful publish on CW

[keviningram]

In looking over the forums, I have discovered one called 'Publishing Success!', for those who recently published a work. Oddly enough, they will not acknowledge self-published or POD works in this forum.... apparently those are not a 'Success' in the eyes of CW...

Does anyone else find this odd or offensive? Is the industry really this slanted toward traditional old-school publishing? Wondering if I am opening a big can of worms here....

[TanyaSue]

Yes, you're opening a big can of worms here. :D

Personally, I don't find it odd or offensive. I have nothing against self-publishing or POD. That said, I see a clear difference between paying to have your words in print and being paid for what you've written.

[lynnmosher]

Kevin, I don't believe that PODs are exempt from the forum. I remember tlm's book being published recently at Lulu.com. And I believe there were others as well. Maybe you just haven't seen their posts.

[keviningram]

They specifically forbid posts in that forum for POD or self published works. It is a moderated forum and all posts must be approved before they appear, and the sticky with the posting quidelines specifies this rule.

If there are POD or self published works in that forum, they must have allowed them as an exception to the rule.

Just concerned before I decide to publish....

[TanyaSue]

Just concerned before I decide to publish....

Concerned about what? To publish what? Are you concerned about posting something on the forum or concerned about a specific publisher?

[lynnmosher]

I'm sorry, Kevin, I must have misunderstood. Forgive me. I do not know why this was enacted. Maybe ask in the member support.

[keviningram]

Concerned about what? To publish what? Are you concerned about posting something on the forum or concerned about a specific publisher?

Yes, I should probably be more specific.... I am mixing messages from various forums..... sorry.

The debate over POD/Self-publish vs. the traditional Agent/Submission route is very important to me as a newcomer. I have come close to signing with Xulon but in doing more research came upon CW, where both sides of the debate seem to have merit in the various forums.

Many here seem to believe POD is acceptable if the writer is prepared to do the marketing legwork, while others dispute that claim and consider POD to be certain death to any novel. Various testimonies had led me to believe POD as a possibility for my situation, but when I found the 'Success!' forum had this strange slant it caused fresh concern in my mind.

The bottom line is: When weighing the POD/Traditional debate, when one is banned from the 'Success' category it raised new red flags to me. That is my concern.

[keviningram]

I'm sorry, Kevin, I must have misunderstood. Forgive me. I do not know why this was enacted. Maybe ask in the member support.

I will do that, I had not yet discovered the member support forum. In trying to soak up as much knowledge as possible I am slowly working through the many topics, and have not completed the list as yet. I am curious why that forum has those restrictions, and will inquire to support for clarification.

[Merry]

Personally, and trust me, I don't speak for all mods, but when it comes to success with most POD's (And I emphasize MOST, not ALL) I tend to wonder what to say...Like do you say, "Congratulations, glad you had enough money to publish your own book. Hope you make back your investment." True, in some cases, Vanity publishing is the best way to go...ie...if you are writing non-fiction, know your market, and know how you are going to get the product you are making sold in that market, then sure fine.

Otherwise, I don't think we want to promote an industry that survives, by and large, by selling snake oil promises to new writers.

I read one comment where a guy said how he gave so many thousands to a Vanity publisher but..."At least I got my book published..."

Sorry, when it comes to the POD world, one man's 'success' is another man's scam.

That being said, I've heard good things about Xuon, however, be aware that in the fiction market, POD sales are....low. Definitely research before you write the check, then research some more...and then try getting an agent and sending your book out.

[whitehawke]

If my understanding is correct, the publishing success forum is there for members who have successfully found a publisher who wants to pay for the privilege to publish that writer's work.

An author does all the work writing a book, so they should be paid for their book.

Anyone with money can go out and pay a POD publisher to print their book, but if those books sit in the author's cupboard for years without selling more than a few copies, then where is the success in that?

We want people to be paid for the work they do.

[Gravity]

Yep. It's a rough, nasty, harsh truth. But take from someone who both lost a book to the PublishAmerica scam, and then ended up getting a three-book deal with a solid CBA house: there's a difference between writing a check to a printer, and a publisher writing one to you.

Is it fair? Maybe not. In fact, probably not. But I'm writing this post from the Glorieta Christian Writers Conference--which is hosting some of the heaviest hitters in the Christian market--and each and every one of them is telling the attendees that for a novel, POD is simply the kiss of death. Here's the truth of it: if all writer wants is a bound copy or two of their work for their own satisfaction, and is content with that, Lulu dot com can do it for nothing. On the other hand, if a novelist is actually looking to sell their work, commericial publishing is the only game in town.

That's just the way it is.

[wgjones3]

Yep. It's a rough, nasty, harsh truth. But take from someone who both lost a book to the PublishAmerica scam, and then ended up getting a three-book deal with a solid CBA house: there's a difference between writing a check to a printer, and a publisher writing one to you.

Is it fair? Maybe not. In fact, probably not. But I'm writing this post from the Glorieta Christian Writers Conference--which is hosting some of the heaviest hitters in the Christian market--and each and every one of them is telling the attendees that for a novel, POD is simply the kiss of death. Here's the truth of it: if all writer wants is a bound copy or two of their work for their own satisfaction, and is content with that, Lulu dot com can do it for nothing. On the other hand, if a novelist is actually looking to sell their work, commericial publishing is the only game in town.

That's just the way it is.

Yup. What he said.

[Merry]

Thank you, Gravity. I think we should run your post as a sticky in the POD forum.

[DrRita]

Thanks Gravity, for saying it like it is.

[Keith Wallis]

Gravity appears to have a reasonable answer for you to consider Kevin. DO folk find the thought that POD/vanity publishing doesn't constitute 'success' offensive - YES they almost certainly do, but I suspect that being scammed is even more offensive.
In the long run it comes down to how much effort the writer is prepared to put in toward hawking the book around. For non-fiction, if the book is a 'speakers' baby, and that baby can be sold wherever he/she gets a gig, there is probably mileage in that kind of publishing. For fiction the only way to get propper representation and advertisement throughout the industry is to go the 'traditional' route.

[ProfessorAlan]

I could see one of many works in progress ending up in POD/self-published, if the big guys don't bite -- it's non-fiction, genre audience, etc ... But I wouldn't count that book as "published," and wouldn't put it in the "Success" forum -- unless it sold a TON, then maybe I would !thumbsup!

[Tommie Lyn]

Kevin, may I add my two cents' worth?

I considered (and am still researching other POD avenues) printing my NaNovel through POD when I learned how easy and fast and good Lulu.com is.

However.

We went to our local Barnes and Nobles stores to find out if they will stock self-published books. They will. Got copies of their guidelines. Learned the hoops a self-published author must jump through to get a book accepted and stocked by them.

Then came the harsh truth -- they obtain books through book wholesalers, like other bookstores do. And the wholesalers, like Ingram, require a 50 to 55% discount. That means the book Lulu.com charges me $10 for (which price is comparable to other POD companies, even local ones) would have to be priced around $25 for the wholesaler to get what they require and for the bookstore to make their profit. And give me no profit.

$25 ??? For a trade paperback book? From an unknown author? When a book buyer can plunk down $25 for a hard cover book from a best-selling author?

That harsh reality stopped me. I have since learned that Lightning Source is more reasonable, but I still haven't done all the math to see if it is viable in my situation. I would have to become a publisher myself (albeit a small publisher with one book to offer) and deal with all that entails.

Not to mention that many agents and publishers won't consider you published if you self-publish -- after all, you didn't go through the traditional publishing route. Plus, to be published traditionally, your work has to be good. Very good. Not only with content (storyline), but technically -- no misspelled words, no bad grammar, etc. Self-published books tend to miss the boat on that score, since they don't undergo the rigid scrutiny traditionally published books do.

So, my intention at this point is to exhaust every avenue in the traditional route before I give up and do it myself.

My advice to you is to attend a writers' conference. Meet face-to-face, eyeball-to-eyeball with agents and editors. That may shorten the process of getting your works considered (and avoid the slush pile). I've gotten good feedback on two of my novels from editors I met at a conference and at a novel workshop (one novel needs more work, and they want the full ms of a novel that's not finished yet as soon as I get it done).

[tlm]

Kevin, I don't believe that PODs are exempt from the forum. I remember tlm's book being published recently at Lulu.com.

I believe that I announced my Lulu.com book on this forum not on the Publishing Success forum. That was basically for the same reason as Gravity posted.

The book was one that was written specifically for PublishAmerica--to fulfill the required 2 book submission--per the contract I foolishly signed. It was a teen fiction story that had been in my head for a long time. I knew that it had little chance of being bought by most publishers, since publishers don't buy many Christian teen fiction titles, so I thought I would write it for PA and be out of the contract. Since it would have my name on the cover, I still did a good job on the book.

PA didn't keep their end of the bargain and used their spell check to add 162 errors to the manuscript. I broke the contract with them and after I presented it to several other publishers decided to put it on Lulu.com and use it to raise money for charity.

I said all of that to say this, self-publishing, unless you have a ready made audience, won't get you much money. If you go that route, go with a print-on-demand publisher so you don't lose money.

[keviningram]

Thanks to all who replied, this is exactly what I wanted to know, excellent information. I joined CW as part of my research about publishing, and I think I am getting closer to the answers I need. For the record, I would rather have the harsh truth now than be the one giving it out to the next newcomers in a couple years after learning the truth the hard way... keep sharing these experiences so all can learn the truth about the industry.

On to the next level....