God and free will

[Drybonesreborn]

There's somone I know, well he hardly logs on, but isn't Christian. I've known him a few years, when I went to college with thim. I gave him so many articles about God, he reads them, but still says science can't prove God and well it saddens me. I've asked about the 10 commandments, did everything possible, seems his heart is so hard that a mallet wouldn't bust it open. His motto is to respect people and live his quiet life. >.>

I know I planted the seeds, fine. My other friend is ignoring me, how can I tell this friend about God, when the door to her ears isn't open? I've been praying so hard to ge to this piont? To what? Just give up? WHAT can GOD do to help? Cuz, it seems like it's the thing over and over and over. I'm furious. If God is the LORD of all, doesn't he control our hearts?

Thanks all!

[DrRita]

First of all, it's not up to you . . . it's up to God. No one comes to the father unless he has been drawn by God. God knows their hearts and knows what they need to get to the place they will look to Him. Your part is to love them, befriend them and for heaven's sake, don't nag them away from the kingdom. Your witness is your life. God will open the doors for witnessing in HIS time and then you will have your opportunity. Otherwise you become the nagging Christian that finally drives them away. Try to just leave the hearts of your friends up to God and be available.

Prayer is THE BEST TOOL. Pray for them, for God to present opportunities and for yourself that you just simply love these friends. When they want to know, they will ask. Until then it's like trying to make a horse drink when he's not thirsty. God will create the thirst.

Oh yes, it may take years!!! Be patient, God is.!thumbsup!

[tlm]

We are not robots and must make a choice. As a child, I used to pray that my father would be a godly man. Well, it was his choice not to be that.

My prayers couldn't control my dad's behavior. I wanted my prayers to work like Genie (Jeannie) on the TV show, but that isn't how prayer works. As an adult I realized that I felt cheated by God because he didn't answer that prayer. It wasn't until I overcame that feeling of betrayal that I had a really intimate walk with God.

[lynnmosher]

Drybones, I echo what DrRita and tlm said. It’s the truth. To add to that, let me share two portions of the book I’m finishing:

When we pray for unbelievers, we cannot pray, “Lord, save so-and-so.” God accomplished all of salvation; Jesus has already shed His blood and completed it all. He cannot go any further to save anyone. The ultimate salvation decision is up to the individual, and it is our responsibility to share the good news of salvation.

When Paul was brought before King Agrippa to answer the charges brought against him, he related his conversion and told him how Jesus said He would use Paul to deliver the Jews and the Gentiles, “to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.”

Paul told the Corinthians, “The god of this evil world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe, so they are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News that is shining upon them. They don’t understand the message.”

Since the enemy has blinded their eyes, we pray, as Paul said, that unbelievers’ eyes will open, that they will see the light of the gospel and the darkness of the enemy be dispelled, and that their hearts will be good soil furrowed to receive the seeds of the Truth of the Word, to take root and produce fruit.
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In our witnessing, sometimes our lives preach the loudest when we are speechless, just by living that quiet yet obvious life according to the Word. St. Francis of Assisi said it best, “Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words if necessary.” For some, we are the only Bible they will read. We are walking advertisements, publicizing the gospel, but what does our ad promote?

Sometimes, we may accomplish much by explaining the things of the Kingdom, but just remember, beating someone over the head with our Bible does not get them saved! You cannot force one to drink who does not know he is thirsty! That won’t result in their loving the Person we love. Only love draws others to the Lord, not condemnation. Jesus said, “Love, and you will draw to you those whom you desire to help.”
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Drybonesreborn, never give up praying. I knew one woman, who taught Sunday School for years, whose husband was not saved. She prayed for him for 40 years before he finally allowed God to take control of his life. So you see, we don’t give up praying…we don’t blame God for lack of control…and we can’t blame others for not seeing the light we see.

I think I said this before in another thread, that sometimes we are too close to those around us to be the right one to lead our unbelieving friends and family to Christ. It takes someone else to cross their path to show them the way. This, then, is what we need to pray.

Just remember, love draws others to Jesus!

Be blessed in all your efforts to reach others for Christ. !thumbsup!

[Lion_Angel]

One of the best and worst things God has given us is that very thing: free will. I say best because we have the choice to accept Christ and not be forced into it, and I say worst because, well, there are many who choose eternal death over everlasting life.

Like the posts above me have said, God will provide opportunities for you to witness.

I know what you feel to an extent, because I have a pagan friend who I really wish could see the Truth. Instead of just showing love, patience, and using even the most subtle opportunities to witness, I dug out my own opportunities and somewhere along the way I screwed up; either it was because I had become too naggy or too critical or something. But I've found that it really isn't up to us to convert, that's God's job.

And you know, even if we do come off a little naggy when we witness--like you said--the seed is still planted. It's so good that you aren't hiding in a shell though, praying for someone else to witness! It takes so much courage from the Lord for many to step up and explain the story of Christ and how we come in. Kudos, my friend! Just keep praying and witnessing because we can't see the hearts of men and we don't know what they are thinking or feeling after they hear the words of God. :cool:

God bless!thumbsup!

[Drybonesreborn]

First of all, it's not up to you . . . it's up to God. No one comes to the father unless he has been drawn by God. God knows their hearts and knows what they need to get to the place they will look to Him. Your part is to love them, befriend them and for heaven's sake, don't nag them away from the kingdom. Your witness is your life. God will open the doors for witnessing in HIS time and then you will have your opportunity. Otherwise you become the nagging Christian that finally drives them away. Try to just leave the hearts of your friends up to God and be available.

Prayer is THE BEST TOOL. Pray for them, for God to present opportunities and for yourself that you just simply love these friends. When they want to know, they will ask. Until then it's like trying to make a horse drink when he's not thirsty. God will create the thirst.

Oh yes, it may take years!!! Be patient, God is.!thumbsup!

I'm not nagging. I'm not say "Talk about God, talk about God."

[DrRita]

I'm sorry if I offended you. I didn't mean to and if I have please forgive me. I know how frustrating it is to want someone dear to come to the Lord and they are as stubborn as bull dogs. So just ignore the "nagging" comments and try to see the rest of the encouragement. You have a compassionate, evangelistic heart my friend that needs not to be broken by frustration.

[Drybonesreborn]

One of the best and worst things God has given us is that very thing: free will. I say best because we have the choice to accept Christ and not be forced into it, and I say worst because, well, there are many who choose eternal death over everlasting life.

Like the posts above me have said, God will provide opportunities for you to witness.

I know what you feel to an extent, because I have a pagan friend who I really wish could see the Truth. Instead of just showing love, patience, and using even the most subtle opportunities to witness, I dug out my own opportunities and somewhere along the way I screwed up; either it was because I had become too naggy or too critical or something. But I've found that it really isn't up to us to convert, that's God's job.

And you know, even if we do come off a little naggy when we witness--like you said--the seed is still planted. It's so good that you aren't hiding in a shell though, praying for someone else to witness! It takes so much courage from the Lord for many to step up and explain the story of Christ and how we come in. Kudos, my friend! Just keep praying and witnessing because we can't see the hearts of men and we don't know what they are thinking or feeling after they hear the words of God. :cool:

God bless!thumbsup!
Thanks. It's not like I told him "You must belive in God or else," I tried when I did see him in school to start gentilly, to show my concern for him. ^_^

[MissyKay]

Sad to say, I know what this is like with my little brother. One thing God has shown me very clearly in the last month: you cannot force someone to believe. No argument is good enough, no proof is solid enough. People will believe what they want to, based on where they are in their lives.

Only God can "prepare the ground" so that the seed takes root.

I would probably pray and wait for that person to come back with questions. To keep debating the point with him will only frustrate you. Remember that verse about casting our pearls before swine?

[Scotsman]

Please be encouraged, knowing that even Jesus suffered heartache because His family’s friends (in his own hometown) didn’t see Him for who He really was (IS). Mark 6.

But, many of them also came around. We have the book of Jude, Jesus’ half brother, as a result of God, the Lord of the Harvest, getting through to Jude.

1 Cor 3:6-8 is still true. Some plant, some water, but God alone gives the increase. Sometimes we attempt to “plant” in a too rocky soil. The “heart” must first be prepared to receive the seed.

Too often we dig, plant, water and expect a harvest before the sun goes down. Scripture says, “First the natural, then the spiritual.” This means what is good in nature, is good in the things of the spirit. God took 6 days to build what only took a few words. We can read about the creation in a few minutes, but God took all the time it took to get the job done.

A firmly planted seed must be gently watered. A mist is better than a fire-truck’s hose. Then it must be re-watered when it starts drying out. Too much water too soon drowns (kills) the seed that was planted in a “well-prepared heart”.

I am reminded of an old song church kids used to sing. “Be patient, don’t be in such a hurry …”

[MADAGLENE]

I agree with Dr.Rita, the choice is ours and yes he's given us freewill, God know the heart and how long it will takefor some one to have a change of heart STOP being mad at GOD because he didn't do it when you say do it, the enemy really like that. The bible say God is faith and we must have faith in him ,NO matter what it looks like he also said the just shall live by faith Hewbrew 2 verse 4.what is faith? Faith is the substance of things hope the evidence of things not seen Hewbrews 11: 1.the bible also say there's a fight to faith 1 Timothy 6:12 when I talk like this I'am talking to my self too cause I am NO better than you and yes I have to be reminded. I enjoy being at this site it make me realize how much I've learned from listing to other people and most of all feeding off God's worded.Don't preach be the exsample maybe they will follow,claim it in Jesus name.

[Lion_Angel]

Thanks. It's not like I told him "You must belive in God or else," I tried when I did see him in school to start gentilly, to show my concern for him. ^_^

Yeah I didn't think that was how it was lol

Isn't it funny how we have to approach people like they're fragile when I comes to talking about Christ, the Savior of our souls and creator of all, but when it comes to talking about secular things like blood and cussing it can be as hard as we'd like it to be? (Not that we do of course, just a figure of speech)

Free will is sometimes a very complicated, and overwhelming, thing. But you're doing fine. Remember what Jesus said about how if when we give them the good news and they simply won't accept it, shake off the dust from your feet and move on. You've done your job.

[Phy]

It's clear you have a passion to introduce your friend to God (or vice versa). Remember that all you can do is make the introduction - the rest is up to your friend (and God).

You're doing the right thing. Pray, be a good example. And remember, this is fishin'. Sometimes, the best way to catch the fish is to lay low, set the hook, and wait.

[MADAGLENE]

God is choice not force , I Freely choose him.

[Drybonesreborn]

Yeah I didn't think that was how it was lol

Isn't it funny how we have to approach people like they're fragile when I comes to talking about Christ, the Savior of our souls and creator of all, but when it comes to talking about secular things like blood and cussing it can be as hard as we'd like it to be? (Not that we do of course, just a figure of speech)

Free will is sometimes a very complicated, and overwhelming, thing. But you're doing fine. Remember what Jesus said about how if when we give them the good news and they simply won't accept it, shake off the dust from your feet and move on. You've done your job.

Thanks. Does this mean I should block him on AIM and never talk to him again?

[chart]

I've been praying so hard to ge to this piont? To what? Just give up? WHAT can GOD do to help? Cuz, it seems like it's the thing over and over and over. I'm furious. If God is the LORD of all, doesn't he control our hearts?
Thanks all!

You asked; "What can GOD do to help?"...He sent His only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER shall believeth in Him WILL have eternal life.

God IS LORD of all! He governs the lives of people who surrender to His WILL and Saves them from hell and damnation. For those who do not honor Him as Lord, will have consequences on judgement day.

You asked; "Doesn't He control our hearts?" The answer is no! If He did, we would be like robots. God gave us all free will to choose Him or not.

Your friends may not be ready to receive Him right now. Hopefully they will someday. keep praying for them, keep loving them and keep planting the seed. Amen?

Graciously,
C. Hart

[Drybonesreborn]

:( What about Pharoh's heart? Thanks. >( I just can't take it. Kind of heart to speak God's word with somone not taking to me.

[DrRita]

God hardened Pharoh's heart because he KNEW Pharoah's heart. If Pharoah was in any way pliable, interested in God and open, he wouldn't have used him like that. Pharoah's heart was hard already, God just gave him over to complete hardness.

[Phy]

I've always heard it said that when God withdrew his grace from Pharaoh, God's presence was no longer there acting as a preventative force, and Pharaoh's heart, unchecked, did what it was determined to do before God's longsuffering intervention.

[Lookin^Up]

Sounds like a good balanced explanation for the seemingly contradictory verses that say God hardened his heart, and Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

[chart]

Amen, to Dr. Rita's and Phy's explanation.

Yes, it is obvious that Pharoah's heart was hardened already. A rebellious heart does not receive instruction very well. In fact the rebellious heart will get more angry and try to prove it's own way. It takes one roundabout occurrence with a rebellious child to see clearly from that perspective. The moment the child gives in and say's I'm sorry and surrenders that's where "reasonable communication" begins. If he/her continues on a rapage having a temper tantrum...we'll...let the course begins...you still don't give in. With every scream and kick comes more days on probation. You get the picture! The more you stand your ground and say; "no", the more furious the kid gets.(You can say the more God stood His ground and said "let my people go" the more Pharoah said,"no". I guess you can say then. Yes, God did "harden" Pharaoh's heart just by HIS ACTION.) Imagine... Pharaoh was warring against God almighty! I don't know about you...but, by the time the first plague hit, I would be saying; "gotcha"..."not a problem"..."have it your way"..."I'm just dust"..."you are God"....on my face....begging God not to do it again. I'd be saying to Moses; "Go and by the way do you need anything for your long trip?" Anyway...that's how I see it. Practical, very practical.:rolleyes:

C.Hart
PS Okay...so I've had some practice.

[Lookin^Up]

Since he presided over a country that worshipped many gods, perhaps he was used to a god he could control. Man-made gods usually are controllable by man, at least in men's minds. But coming up against a God who wouldn't take his no for an answer, he became all the more frustrated and kept digging in his heels.

[Daniel]

Oh, my favorite topic. I was on this search for a few number of years and had conversations with a fellow philosopher about it. One of the things I've had to learn, that I was taught first out of all things, was to know that "God is Sovereign". I've had to learn to accept things the way they are, learn to have a better attitude and know that I can be in control of myself, along with knowing that I do have a short hand, a hand nontheless, in what goes on around me. In knowing and accepting that God is in control, to be in his will, I can see things a little more clearly in my life, but it can still be dark or hazy. The crazy thing is, there are still things out there about the topic of "God and Free will" that I am still meditating upon. Things like predestination and places where we end up at by "coincidence", or people we meet by "accident".
Chart said an interesting thing, "You can say the more God stood His ground and said "let my people go" the more Pharoah said,"no". I guess you can say then. Yes, God did "harden" Pharaoh's heart just by HIS ACTION." It makes me think about how intricate is our relationship with God, or, his relationship with his Creation. Did Pharoah harden his own heart by God's will? Or as Chart pointed out, was it a friction of Pharoah's and God's relationship? And lastly, are something not controled by God and other things are?
That brings me into another topic, "What is the Christian's connection with the spiritual world?" What does it mean? How do we participate in it? Etc... But over all, when I've had to learn that God is Sovereign, it makes it a little easier, but it also makes me more aware of my own responsibility in my life and the responsibility I have in other peoples' lives.

[MADAGLENE]

That is what God has given all human beings freewill the CHOICE TO CHOSE life or death. John 10:10 Jesus said the thief comes to steal, kill and destory But I come that you might have life,and have it more abundantly. freewill is already established. In the garden of Eden God gave Adam freewill to make the right choice he commanded that he could eat of every tree EXCEPT the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the day you eat of that tree you will surely DIE when his wife Eve gave him the fruit he had the choice to eat or not to eat, he chosed to eat.That same freewill that was establish by God is the same today. We have the choice to chose follow God's word though Jesus Christ the last Adam or the world and it's evil system.

[Drybonesreborn]

Thanks for your help. Just confusing though.