Why is church so different than what's in the Bible?

[scottyo]

In 1Cor14 the whole chapter is devoted to what the gathering together of believers is to be like. Yet when we go to the gatherings today, one or two maybe three do all the speaking. In vs. 26 it says, "When you assemble...". God means, anytime, anyplace, unquantified, when you get together with other Christians.

Is there not something terribly wrong in the church in this hour?

[Ransom v. Unman]

Yup. There's lots wrong with the church. And it goes far beyond just I Corinthians 14.

But so it shall be where any group of sinners comes to celebrate God. Outside the time of Christ and the time of Moses, when indeed has there been a perfect body?

[Keith Wallis]

Scott this primarily a writing site - not a general discussion forum. Go to the meets & greets forum and introduce yourself before getting contentious.

[scottyo]

Keith Wallis, that was just mean spirited. Thank you for the warm welcome!

[Rebecca]

Hi Scottyo,

I'm sure it wasn't meant as mean spirited. Just as any other site, we've been the victims of trolling behavior on many occasions. Keith is just doing his job--making sure things around here stay civilized.

It's also standard procedure to introduce yourself in the meets & greets (http://christianwriters.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=48), first. We'd like to make your acquaintance and know more about you, especially before jumping into such a serious topic. ;)

If you familiarize yourself with the TOS (http://christianwriters.com/forums/faq.php?faq=new_faq_item#faq_tos) here, you'll see that we don't permit outright debating on this site, simply because that isn't appropriate here. We're a writing site.

I do think you've made a valid observation, and I don't mind discussion on this topic--as long as it remains civilized and doesn't descend into mudslinging or argument.

Thank you, and God bless. :)

Rebecca

[scottyo]

Now that was a kind reply as I am sure you meant it to be.

Thanks for the intro and greeting. I hope this topic still stands. I want to know what thinking Christians think about this.

[Keith Wallis]

Scott you still need to introduce yourself to the folks here.

regards Mean-spirited, thoroughly contentious, vampire-toothed ,doom-laden Keith.

[Ransom v. Unman]

Scott you still need to introduce yourself to the folks here.

regards Mean-spirited, thoroughly contentious, vampire-toothed ,doom-laden Keith.

Oh, be easy on yourself. You sound like most Englishmen I've met.

I think it's why I get along with them so swimmingly. :p

[tlm]

Returning to the topic, tee hee.

When commenting on the church, remember this; for all its faults, it is the Bride of Christ. That is a term showing His love and affection for the church.

When commenting on the church on a public forum, please remember to be kind. After all, any groom become concerned when his bride is publicly criticized.

I'm not a moderator or anything like that, just part of the Bride.

[Ransom v. Unman]

The bride could use a facial...

[jacks girl]

Scottyo:
We all get our toes stepped on at times, you will learn to love Keith as we all do, we at least as I do. He's a great friend and a good Critique and at times it's hard to know what peoples tones are when it's only in writing. You will have to be around a little longer to learn who we are and our sense of humors. give it time you'll get the hang of it.

I had a thread closed my own self once over a religious question, and I have learned sense that this is a writing site not a Bible study site. it's too easy to hurt peoples feelings or be hurt yourself when getting into a heated debate.

As far as you questions goes I think, all things need to be done in order. Most of the churches I go to people have the free right to stand and speak for their love for Christ. As far as two or three speaking... hey if for more than that spoke we'd be there all night lol.. I will have to read the verse's you're talking about again and give you a opinion on that.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the way our church is run, so to say, I think we get repetitive at times. In a rut of doing the same things out of habit more than because we feel moved.

[ProfessorAlan]

Why is church so different than what's in the Bible?

For one major thing, the entire world is so different from what's in the Bible

There have also been 2 thousand years of human egos (mostly male egos -- the worst kind!) involved since Pentecost.

[FireFeet]

This is my interpretation of the history of the Church.

The Church grew at a rate I don't think we can even fathom. Most of those thousands who were "being added to the church daily" were unfamiliar with this new religion. Those few who were knowledgable took positions of leadership out of necessity.

As Christianity spread, the leaders strove to standardize their beliefs and practices. By the fourth century, the fundamental doctrines of the Church had been formalized into the Nicene Creed, written by the Council of Nicene, under the rulership of the Emperor Constantine. Under Constantine in 312 AD, Christianity was adopted by Rome

From there, the Church as we know it began to emerge. Most people were illiterate, and even those that weren't didn't have access to Bibles as we do today, so they didn't question what was happening. And the Church in Rome was a powerful political force, and to speak against it was heresay. (Look at what happened to Martin Luther.)

So, how will centuries of tradition and mistranslation be altered? Only by God. And I think that change is beginning.

People are questioning those traditions. New churches are being birthed that are based on the apostolic model presented in the New Testament in which the work of the ministry is done by the body and the pastor functions as an apostle and overseer.

"When you gather for worship, each one of you be prepared with something that will be useful for all: Sing a hymn, teach a lesson, tell a story, lead a prayer, provide an insight." (1 Cor. 14:25)

I have been very fortunate to have found a church that functions in just this way, so yes, I know that it's possible.

The Church isn't going to change overnight. But I never forget that with God, all things are possible.


(Incidently, the word "church" is a mistranslation of the Greek work ekklesia which literally means "assembly of called out ones." The word "church" derives from a word used to describe pagan spiritual practices which they then used after their conversion to describe Christian religious gatherings. The word "church" was never even in the Bible until King James decided to include it in his translation because it was the popular word at that time.)

[ProfessorAlan]

I am actually going the other direction. I find parts of the "ancient-modern" movement interesting, and congruent with my own re-awakening to the value of some practices and attitudes that Protestants left behind in their effort to make sure they did nothing that seemed "too Catholic."

Right now, the Celtic monastics of the 5th and 6th century are "hip" in some Christian circles now, which works for me, as I've been intrigued by them for almost all of my two decades in the faith. I came to faith in the evangelical movement, and just adopted those attitudes and beliefs in toto, without really thinking about it. Well, I've spent the last few years thinking about it, and have found much wisdom and comfort in the ancients.

The "ancient-modern" movement has given me comfort, in that "so I'm not the only one thinking like this" sort of way.

But to each their own -- God is really, really big, and is not just in one "wave" or "movement."

[Ransom v. Unman]

The Church isn't going to change overnight. But I never forget that with God, all things are possible.


Actually, depending on how one interprets apocalyptic prophecies, this might be exactly what God does at the end of time. ;)

[tlm]

But to each their own -- God is really, really big, and is not just in one "wave" or "movement."
____________


Amen!!thumbsup!

[Lookin^Up]

I really like FireFeet's answer, as it is well researched and well considered, not to mention well written. ProfAlan has also made some fine points regarding how we choose to worship. Unlike the First Century Christians, we have a long and somewhat checkered history of various doctrines, methods, and persecutions--going both ways between Christians and unbelievers, unfortunately--so we must each choose the method that speaks most to us. But not in an emotional high, as emotions can more often cloud true worship than enhance it (although emotion is a valid result.)

In a nutshell, what I'm saying is that the difference between the church of Paul's day, contrasted with ours, is a question of culture, then of personal taste. Prof is right, it was a totally different world back then, we are living in the Last Days, and God is still moving mightily among us, in spite of the church's many blemishes.

[ProfessorAlan]

Prof is right, it was a totally different world back then, we are living in the Last Days, and God is still moving mightily among us ...

Just to clarify, I didn't say we were in the Last Days -- except in the sense that we have been in the Last Days since the time of Christ.

[Scotsman]

We are one body, made up by many totally separate members. Not everyone does the same thing, or worships the same way – Praise the Lord.

During my earlier ministry years, my wife and I were fortunate enough to take part in ministering in numerous “denominations” including non-denominational and inter-denominational, throughout much of Canada and most of our states.

With invitations to Mennonite churches, Pentecostal churches, Lutheran, etc. we worshiped Him. We prayed to Him. We acknowledged His presence. Some church buildings were elaborate. Some were simple, some were held in a community hall. The one thing is common concerning each and every house of worship – Jesus Christ is Lord.

Throughout most of Mexico, most of Guatemala, El Salvador & Honduras – where we also worshiped and ministered, it was exactly the same – well except for the name - Jesucristo es Señor – everything was exactly the same!

In England, Russia, Cyprus, Israel & Palestine, we always worshiped and ministered accordingly to their “style”. The signs on the churches’ outside were always different. The designs of the buildings, etc. were always different. The spoken languages were always different. The focus of our worship, however, was always exactly the same. After all – HE never changes.

Scotsman

[Lookin^Up]

Sorry, Prof, I did embellish a bit.

[scottyo]

Firefeet, that was an nice historical summary. After reading your response I realized that is the problem - "traditions of men". Traditions are perhaps the most difficult to change. Jesus rebuked the Scribes and Pharisees for their traditions, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition." (Mark 7:9)

Of course Paul tells us regarding traditions, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught..." (2Thes2:15) But these "traditions" are the truth from God.

One other thing you said, "the pastor functions as an apostle and overseer." Isn't that kind of like, oh I don't know, having your plumber change your car's muffler and fix your lawn mower? :) Why not have the apostle do the work of an apostle and the overseer do the work of an overseer and the pastor do the work of a pastor? Perhaps this too is tradition - the misused office of the pastor.

[chart]

So, how will centuries of tradition and mistranslation be altered? Only by God. And I think that change is beginning.

People are questioning those traditions. New churches are being birthed that are based on the apostolic model presented in the New Testament in which the work of the ministry is done by the body and the pastor functions as an apostle and overseer.

"When you gather for worship, each one of you be prepared with something that will be useful for all: Sing a hymn, teach a lesson, tell a story, lead a prayer, provide an insight." (1 Cor. 14:25)

I have been very fortunate to have found a church that functions in just this way, so yes, I know that it's possible.

Firefeet, Is 5th Ave. any wheres near Philadelphia? I would really like to attend your Church! I have longed to witness the "true Church" in operation..as you have mentioned.

Your answer by the way is extremely informative. Thank You! I agree, we are infiltrated with Constantine's version of "church". Wordly ways have entered the American Church Culture assemblies however, Ekklesia will always be "A Called out Women"— One who is set apart, sanctified and getting ready for her groom. Not everyone who attends Church or assembles in Church buildings are true "followers of Christ" hence: are "Ekklesia". Does this answer your question Scottyo?

In Congregations where Traditions of Men, Philosophies of Men and Rudiments of this World(as Prof. Alan states; "Men's egos") take presidence over our Lord Jesus Christ, theres a tendency to follow those "puffed up" doctrines rather than the doctrine of Christ crucified and raised. Hence, without understanding of what it means to "follow Christ" and "make disciples" there is no understanding of the "Power of the Cross"; no victory, no testimony of overcoming, no Spirit of Christ etc..

This may be "what's wrong" with the Church as we know it in the American Culture. I think as writers, it's a good thing to pay attention as to what is happening around us and encourage one another to raise the Biblical standard. Writing is one of the most influencial voices we have. Amen?

Desiring always to be called Ekklesia,
Chart

[FireFeet]

Thanks everyone for the comments and compliments regarding my post. :)

Chart - I'm actually in Ohio, and if you ever feel like making the drive, you're more than welcome to come visit!

And you're absolutely right about "men's egos" - how do a collective group of church leaders get to the point where they can humbly admit that maybe Church isn't being done exactly how it should be?

Scottyo - What you said about "pastor" is certainly true. I don't know why we call her that when to call her "apostle" would be more accurate. She functions much as Apostle Paul did - going to other churches to speak, building up other ministries, mentoring the "Timothy's," overseeing the home base.

ProfAllan - I think the "ancient modern movement" is a step towards the restoration of a true Bible-based form of ministry. I think it indicates that people are searching the past for clues of how this thing is supposed to be done. The "ancient modern movement" just needs to take a few more steps back and began to seek the Biblical mandates and traditions.

LookingUp - You're absolutely right in saying that the culture of our day is vastly different than that of Biblical times, and that will certainly have an effective on how church is done. But the what remains the same - that the work of ministry should be done by the body.

Scotsman - Yes, God never changes, and our focus must always be on His glorification. But how much more authentic would our worship to Him be if we were in a place of having fully realized our glory and were walking purposefully in who He has called us to be?

[ProfessorAlan]

I'm actually in Ohio, and if you ever feel like making the drive, you're more than welcome to come visit!
Wow, me, too -- Columbus. Go Bucks.


And you're absolutely right about "men's egos" - how do a collective group of church leaders get to the point where they can humbly admit that maybe Church isn't being done exactly how it should be?
And yet your church is doing it exactly as it should be? Hmmmm ....

[FireFeet]

And yet your church is doing it exactly as it should be? Hmmmm ....

Oh no...that's not what I meant to imply at all.

My use of the word "exactly" in that sentence is used in an informal sense, as in, "Ya know, I don't think this is right exactly."


(Didn't we have a thread about word and tone misunderstandings? ;))

[lindenbooks]

Such wonderful, balanced responses here--but I would expect no less from this wonderful group ("hi" and "good job" to my homeys, Firefeet and Prof Alan--and yes, we all love Keith!;)).

Our experience, my husband's and mine, is very similar to Scotsman's, and I'd like to add one more element to this discussion, Matthew 18:20:

"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

With all the rest there is to consider, it can all come down simply to this.:) I've always asked the question, "What more to we need than the presence of Jesus to have 'church'?" True fellowship is the keystone to discipleship; living our lives the short time we have to live them here, unto Him and not unto men.

Cami

[ProfessorAlan]

Oh no...that's not what I meant to imply at all.

I figured that -- just double-checking!

[scottyo]

lindenbooks: I think the answer to your question, "What more do we need than the presence of Jesus to have church?", is...

We need to function the way He said to.

When we gather together, where 2 or 3, He wants us to behave in a particular manner, a manner designed by the Lord that benefits all of us. There really shouldn't be any options or personal preferences or likes and dislikes. When we meet together we should simply be obedient to what He wants us to do and how he wants us to do it. The Lord maps it out in 1Cor14.

It should be the same in India, in New York, in Japan or Iraq, just different language and music.

[Lookin^Up]

And let's not forget 1 Corinthians 12:12-14; 14:26-33, which support orderliness and unity in church services. There are many other passages that support these ideas, too. All churches should follow this pattern.